Deadly force justified to prevent restraint only?
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Thread: Deadly force justified to prevent restraint only?

  1. #1

    Deadly force justified to prevent restraint only?

    Cell phone video shows off-duty deputy attempt to arrest soldier - FOX Carolina 21

    Neglecting all the argument about alcohol and guns and assuming (like in Washington), this woman would have been perfectly legal to possess a firearm (I know South Carolina is different) as long as she wasn't in the >21 years old restricted area (Washington law). At what point would she have been justified in shooting the perpetrator?

    Derrick approached a female soldier from Fort Jackson who appeared to be upset. The report states 23-year-old Brittany Ball showed no interest in Derrick and the two started arguing.


    Police say Derrick, who was not in uniform and was drinking alcohol, left the restaurant and returned with handcuffs he retrieved from his vehicle.


    Derrick overpowered Ball, handcuffed her, pulled her to her feet, and slammed her head into a metal table, the report states. Ball, according to the report, was also drinking alcohol.


    "And about the time I got my video out, he had her turned around and was putting her in handcuffs. I mean she never yelled at him. She never resisted. She was as calm as she could be. Obviously she was scared, I mean when you get arrested, especially if it's your first time you're going to be scared."


    A police officer who reviewed video of the incident reports hearing Derrick say, "This is how Marines deal with soldiers," while slamming the woman into the table.
    Would it make a difference if he showed a badge at the beginning and claimed that he was arresting her on some BS "causing a disturbance" or "breaching the peace violation" given the totality of the circumstances involved?

    Is it justified to use deadly force to prevent a restraint which could result in grave bodily harm or death, or is it required to ascertain an actual intent to cause grave bodily harm. For example, let's say this guy just flashed his badge and said he was going to arrest her, while he was obviously under the influence of alcohol but showed no indication he was going to harm her. And then after he got the handcuffs on, he proceeded to do what he did.
    Anyone who says, "I support the 2nd amendment, BUT"... doesn't. Element of Surprise: a mythical element that many believe has the same affect upon criminals that Kryptonite has upon Superman.

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  3. #2
    I am a rather small woman... tall, but lightweight. If someone restrains me, I would be in fear for my life. Unless there's a legitimate reason to arrest me, and the person restraining me has been identified as a cop, I don't know what the final intentions of my attacker are. No matter what my attacker says ("I'm just going to tie you up, I won't hurt you, I promise"), I don't trust the BG! What possible reason is there to restrain me? Most of them are terrible. I will not allow myself to be restrained or taken anywhere against my will... there are worse things than death, and those things happen when you are helpless.

    Now, if there are other people around like in a restaurant or a bar, I probably wouldn't go for deadly force. Hopefully there will be people around willing to help, and that's one place I can't be certain of what's behind my target. But then, it's hard to say since I'm never somewhere like that alone. Heck, I haven't gone out once since my husband got stationed overseas, except to a defensive handgun class!
    Modern Whig
    "Government is not meant to burden Liberty but rather to secure it." -T.J. O'Hara

  4. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by telpinaro View Post
    Now, if there are other people around like in a restaurant or a bar, I probably wouldn't go for deadly force. Hopefully there will be people around willing to help, and that's one place I can't be certain of what's behind my target.
    As we "progress" in our society, there are fewer and fewer people willing to intervene. This example is one where nobody intervened except for waiting for the police to arrive while a drunk man slammed a woman that they allowed to be handcuffed in their presence into a table.
    Anyone who says, "I support the 2nd amendment, BUT"... doesn't. Element of Surprise: a mythical element that many believe has the same affect upon criminals that Kryptonite has upon Superman.

  5. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLCDR View Post
    As we "progress" in our society, there are fewer and fewer people willing to intervene. This example is one where nobody intervened except for waiting for the police to arrive while a drunk man slammed a woman that they allowed to be handcuffed in their presence into a table.
    Very true... but everybody's willing to video everything on their camera phone! Seems that's what saved her in the end...

    I can't tell for sure if everyone knew the guy was police before this occurred... Drunk or not, if a known LEO is arresting someone I'd be hesitant to intervene.

    I'm honestly not sure what I'd do if I had been in that situation.
    Modern Whig
    "Government is not meant to burden Liberty but rather to secure it." -T.J. O'Hara

  6. #5
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    I was bashed up pretty well by a cop in 1971. If someone wants all of the details let me know. I was not resisting anything, I was absolutely compliant so please don't start off with "...you must of been doing something" crap. The plain facts are the cop was just plain ole pissed off...really pissed. He had me spread eagle over the hood of his squad car, told me not to move a muscle or he would break every goddamned bone in my body...at which time he brought his flash light down on the back of my head cutting my head and forcing my face into his squad car thereby breaking off one of my front teeth. Now at the time I had no idea what this cop was going to do next. He took me to the district barracks. While there I was standing outside of a holding cell. The cop got into a semi crouching position and placed his hand onto his service revolver and told the other cop that was there to be very wary of me, I was dangerous. He eventually charged me with being a passenger on a motorcycle and not wearing safety equipment (a helmet and foot wear). Turns out the charges were dropped by time I got to court. I wanted to ask the judge why not wearing a helmet deserved such a throttling. So what does one do when either yourself or another innocent is getting the crap beat out of them by LEO...are there any cops in the room that want to take a stab at me...errrrrr...answering this question. I know exactly what you guys do with little to no provocation. Sometimes I have a burst of gratitude that I am not a dog!

  7. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by telpinaro View Post
    Very true... but everybody's willing to video everything on their camera phone! Seems that's what saved her in the end...

    I can't tell for sure if everyone knew the guy was police before this occurred... Drunk or not, if a known LEO is arresting someone I'd be hesitant to intervene.

    I'm honestly not sure what I'd do if I had been in that situation.
    I think a lot of people do a lot of arm chair quarterbacking and arm chair training (including myself), but when it comes to the real situation, it's hard to predict what we actually do. The CO of my squadron was in a jet (Prowler back seat) on a very dark night catapult launch from the carrier that went very bad. They recovered and flew away, but he said in the debrief that the situation had gone past the point where he always said he would eject. Analyzing a situation in discussion, and even to some extent in simulation, is very different than when the situation happens in real life.
    Anyone who says, "I support the 2nd amendment, BUT"... doesn't. Element of Surprise: a mythical element that many believe has the same affect upon criminals that Kryptonite has upon Superman.

  8. #7
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    Watching this video is scary. This wanna be cop should be tarred and feathered. The woman (active Army) could do nothing but scream as her hand cuffed arms were twisted to inflict maximum pain. This is a disgrace to this PD. These are the ones we have to be ready for when the time comes. And it will..

  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLCDR View Post
    I think a lot of people do a lot of arm chair quarterbacking and arm chair training (including myself), but when it comes to the real situation, it's hard to predict what we actually do. The CO of my squadron was in a jet (Prowler back seat) on a very dark night catapult launch from the carrier that went very bad. They recovered and flew away, but he said in the debrief that the situation had gone past the point where he always said he would eject. Analyzing a situation in discussion, and even to some extent in simulation, is very different than when the situation happens in real life.
    I think so, too. I do think analyzing different situations like this is a good exercise... Better than simply thinking "I have a gun, I'll be fine." Having an idea of what's out there and what can happen, and possible appropriate reactions can help make us better prepared.

    It is impossible, though, to say exactly how you'll react until you get there. And it's important to realize that, too!

  10. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by shirtz1 View Post
    Watching this video is scary. This wanna be cop should be tarred and feathered. The woman (active Army) could do nothing but scream as her hand cuffed arms were twisted to inflict maximum pain. This is a disgrace to this PD. These are the ones we have to be ready for when the time comes. And it will..
    He should be fired then charged but the "department" will state the usual bull$hit that after an "internal investigation" he did not violate any guidelines and followed the proper procedure.
    Suppose you were an idiot, and suppose you were a member of Congress;
    but I repeat myself.
    Mark Twain

  11. Quote Originally Posted by shirtz1 View Post
    Watching this video is scary. This wanna be cop should be tarred and feathered. The woman (active Army) could do nothing but scream as her hand cuffed arms were twisted to inflict maximum pain. This is a disgrace to this PD. These are the ones we have to be ready for when the time comes. And it will..
    You know, there are going to be some other members on this forum who will actually accuse you of being a cop basher and hater.

    Quote Originally Posted by BigSlick View Post
    He should be fired then charged but the "department" will state the usual bull$hit that after an "internal investigation" he did not violate any guidelines and followed the proper procedure.
    or he was suffering from PTSD and it would be a violation of the Americans with Disabilities Act to fire him, so they will offer a medical/disability retirement.
    Anyone who says, "I support the 2nd amendment, BUT"... doesn't. Element of Surprise: a mythical element that many believe has the same affect upon criminals that Kryptonite has upon Superman.

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