Use of deadly force/common sense
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Thread: Use of deadly force/common sense

  1. #1
    Join Date
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    Exclamation Use of deadly force/common sense

    Let's see what we know about the use of deadly force in general...
    Not false bravado or better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6...

    1. Deadly force is only to be used to protect your life, the life of a family member or other innocent person. To prevent a forceable felony such as murder, rape or kidnapping if you honestly and truly believe that the outcome is going to end with someone being killed by the perp. You want the situation to stop.
    It is a judgement call only you can make so choose wisely.
    2. Deadly force is best used when confronted with a clear threat. Not when you think the BG might have a weapon, but you KNOW he does. You only ever want the situation to STOP.
    3. The use of deadly force (Killing another human) will haunt your dreams forever. There is no shaking the what if factor. You only ever wanted the situation to stop.
    4. If the criminal is departing after you catch him/her breaking into your car/house/boat/shed they are not a threat PERIOD
    Shooting some poor fool in the back is not a good thing; never has been, never will be!
    5. Deadly force can quickly be turned to premeditated homicide if you have ever had so much as a cross word with the deceased prior to the self defense action.
    6. I bet you dollars to donuts that you will not want to stay in the same house that you shot and killed some crack head who pulled a knife/gun on you during a home invasion. (It is just human nature to not want to remain at the scene of something so grisly)
    7. When giving your statement to the police, all you will ever say is"I want my lawyer", nothing more. Anything you say can and will be used against you. It is really hard to turn "I want my lawyer" into "he had it coming" or "I was justified in killing him". The letters don't even come close to matching. Keep it simple with "I want my lawyer." This will help protect you in the long run. DO NOT EXPAND ON THE FACTS. Let your lawyer decide what will help you and what will hurt you.
    Last edited by festus; 01-28-2009 at 09:03 AM.
    FESTUS
    IN OMNIA PARATUS

  2.   
  3. #2
    wolfhunter Guest
    Once again, you've posted a well written, clear, and wise piece of advice. Thank you.

  4. Well put. I would also add something about feeling guilty in there. A perfectly normal reaction to depriving another of their life.
    "I'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by six"
    -Sgt. Jeremy Clark WHPD

  5. #4
    great information. Thanks for a great post.

  6. #5
    The best part being, shut up and let your lawyer do the talking. Even in a clear-cut case of self-defense, don't say anything.
    -= Piece Corps =-

  7. I would imagine it's hard to do sometimes.

    A story my uncle told me once that happened while he was working (he's an EMT):

    My uncle responded to an assault call. When he got there he saw three people involved that the police were talking to. One of the guys had blood all over his face clearly from being punched in the nose and the other two were a girl/guy couple. While my uncle was checking the "victim" out, my uncle heard the "suspect" giving his side of the story. The man basically said, "this guy grabbed my girlfriend's ass and I punched him for it."

    To which the officer replied, "Nooo...... Your significant other was sexually harrassed by this man and you were merely detaining him using a reasonable amount of force until the police arrived." The man nodded and smiled.

    My uncle decided the so-called victim was fine and could wait for medical attention until after he was booked. :)

    Such a good story I think i'll post it in the LEO section too!
    "I'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by six"
    -Sgt. Jeremy Clark WHPD

  8. Keep in mind that "I want my lawyer" vs. a short description such as "He came at me, I was in fear for my life. I just wanted him to stop." May be the difference between being arrested and spending a night in jail, or not.

    While it's wise not to say too much, saying too little can cause you problems too.
    A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity. Sigmund Freud

  9. #8
    I would say that you are missing one element regarding self defense. Part of self defense is to also stop great bodily harm, not just death. That is in most statutes for self defense.

    Even as bass ackwards as IL is, this is the law at this moment:

    (720 ILCS 5/7 1) (from Ch. 38, par. 7 1)
    Sec. 7 1. Use of force in defense of person.
    (a) A person is justified in the use of force against another when and to the extent that he reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to defend himself or another against such other's imminent use of unlawful force. However, he is justified in the use of force which is intended or likely to cause death or great bodily harm only if he reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or another, or the commission of a forcible felony.

    So IL even goes as far as saying a forcible felony is reason to use force against another. A forcible felony is described as:

    In Illinois, a forcible felony is defined as "treason, first degree murder, second degree murder, aggravated criminal sexual assault, criminal sexual assault, robbery, burglary arson, aggravated kidnaping, kidnaping, aggravated battery resulting in great bodily harm or permanent disability or disfigurement and any other felony which involves the use or threat of physical force or violence against any individual." 720 ILCS 5/2-8 (West 2000).
    Treason
    First degree murder
    Second degree murder
    Predatory criminal sexual assault of a child
    Aggravated criminal sexual assault
    Criminal sexual assault
    Robbery
    Burglary
    Residential burglary
    Aggravated Arson
    Arson
    Aggravated kidnapping
    Kidnapping
    Aggravated battery resulting in great bodily harm or permanent disability or disfigurement
    And any other felony which involves the use of threat of physical force or violence against any individual



    (720 ILCS 5/2 8) (from Ch. 38, par. 2 8)

    Sec. 2 8. "Forcible felony". "Forcible felony" means treason, first degree murder, second degree murder, predatory criminal sexual assault of a child, aggravated criminal sexual assault, criminal sexual assault, robbery, burglary, residential burglary, aggravated arson, arson, aggravated kidnaping, kidnaping, aggravated battery resulting in great bodily harm or permanent disability or disfigurement and any other felony which involves the use or threat of physical force or violence against any individual.

    (Source: P.A. 88 277; 89 428, eff. 12 13 95; 89 462, eff. 5 29 96.)

    So I guess the best bet is to try to find out what the law is in the state or states you are in or planning on carrying in.

    As far as the "treason" idea goes, it would seem to me that damn near any politician in this sorry state would be fair game. I personally would put King Richard, mayor of the state at the top of the list

  10. #9
    7. When giving your statement to the police, all you will ever say is"I want my lawyer", nothing more. Anything you say can and will be used against you. It is really hard to turn "I want my lawyer" into "he had it coming" or "I was justified in killing him". The letters don't even come close to matching. Keep it simple with "I want my lawyer." This will help protect you in the long run. DO NOT EXPAND ON THE FACTS. Let your lawyer decide what will help you and what will hurt you.[/QUOTE]


    I took a course offered by Massad Ayoob a few years back. If you don't know the name, he is an ex-LEO and does travel the country as an expert witness in LE and self defense cases.

    His five point checklist:
    1) Tell responding officers "I am the victim; he is the perpetrator."

    2) Tell responding officers, "I will sign a complaint."

    3) Point out pertinent evidence.

    4) Point out any witnesses who saw what happened.

    5) If there is any hint that you are a suspect, say "Officer, you will have my full cooperation after I have counsel here."

    Now this is assuming that if you did actually shoot someone that you have the frame of mind to remember all this.

    There has been a debate in another forum whether or not pictures of the scene would be a good idea. Again, that is assuming you remember to do that you or you have someone with you that can use a cell phone or digital camera.

    I would like to recommend that anyone that carries at least investigate The Armed Citizen's Legal Defense Network.

    I have joined and believe the resources that are made available are priceless. I already have a working relationship with a local attorney that is joining the network so he has the resources of the network available for defense strategies.

    I also checked into my homeowners insurance and I have coverage to cover the costs of legal representation available as long as I did not do something illegal.

    I hope to never have to use any of this. Just like having a fire extinguisher or a firearm in the home ready for self defense, it is best to be prepared.

    I just wanted to throw this out as food for thought.

    My reply didn't show the link so here it is again: http://www.armedcitizensnetwork.org Hopefully this will work.
    Last edited by JST44Mag; 02-04-2009 at 02:16 PM. Reason: the link didn't show up

  11. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by speedracer815 View Post
    Keep in mind that "I want my lawyer" vs. a short description such as "He came at me, I was in fear for my life. I just wanted him to stop." May be the difference between being arrested and spending a night in jail, or not.

    While it's wise not to say too much, saying too little can cause you problems too.
    Are you saying you should say a little piece of your story? He is whats wrong with that. Lets say after they look into the matter they come back and say you did not act with in the law you are under arrest for this or that. At trail they will take what little you did say and cut and paste it to meet their needs of making you look a cold blooded killer. The only part the court will hear out of every thing you said was. "I wanted Him Stopped". From that point on they will keep hammering that point home with the court. "you just wanted him stopped' even if that meant killing him ( and so on and so on) Your rights say 'Any thing you say can will be used against you in a court of law" They do not say any thing you say can and will help your case.

    THEY MAY TAKE OUR LIVES BUT THEY'LL NEVER TAKE OUR FREEDOM!!!!!

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