OK, You have a CCW. When NOT to use it? - Page 3
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Thread: OK, You have a CCW. When NOT to use it?

  1. #21
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    Hey Atsteward1: Your last statement says it all. The problem with defending yourself is the fact that 1. the prosecutor/solicitor may have a different take on the situation and 2. the eventual jury may agree with the prosecutor and 3. the family of the perp and the perp himself, if he survives, may also think differently. Bottom line: You MAY have saved your life by your actions but the consequences, leaving aside that you have convinced yourself of same, are tens of thousands in legal costs and possible jail. It definitely has to be within 5 or 10 yards, you can demonstrate that retreat was not possible, the perp better have shown a weapon that is recoverable (fists are a he said/he said), and better yet--there is a witness other than another fellow perp. It is a lot to ask of any of us who want to carry a weapon but you've got to train and be very, very, very familiar with the specific case law in your state that governs such deadly self-defense.

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  3. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by kelcarry View Post
    Hey Atsteward1: The problem with defending yourself is the fact that 1. the prosecutor/solicitor may have a different take on the situation and 2. the eventual jury may agree with the prosecutor and 3. the family of the perp and the perp himself, if he survives, may also think differently. Bottom line: You MAY have saved your life by your actions but the consequences, leaving aside that you have convinced yourself of same, are tens of thousands in legal costs and possible jail. It definitely has to be within 5 or 10 yards, you can demonstrate that retreat was not possible, the perp better have shown a weapon that is recoverable (fists are a he said/he said), and better yet--there is a witness other than another fellow perp. It is a lot to ask of any of us who want to carry a weapon but you've got to train and be very, very, very familiar with the specific case law in your state that governs such deadly self-defense.
    Also - remember that a Criminal trial and a Civil trial do not work on the same weights and measures..
    As with OJ.. He was found innocent of murder (Criminal)
    But then he was sued by his ex wife's family and they won.. (Civil)

    In Criminal cases, the weight is "Beyond a reasonable doubt" (90+% Sure)
    In Civil it's "Preponderance of the evidence" (51% Sure)

    So the Jury in your criminal case may say, hey we are 75% sure you did the wrong thing, and let you off...
    But in a civil Trial, that same 75% will cost you millions of dollars..

    Gulf Coast, Floriduh
    Sccy is the limit

  4. #23
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    I know my answer and I'm sure, based on the posts on this thread, what most of your responses are but here is the scenario. At night I lock my bedroom door, have a cellphone by my bed, and have, in my bedroom, a 12g shotgun and a 38spl. The 38 is right by my bed and the 12g is in a closet a few steps from my bed.I hear a commotion in my living room and it is obvious that someone has broken into my home, is disregarding the ringing of the door/window intrusion alarms, and is looking for things to steal. I certainly do not know if they have a weapon of any kind. My first act will be to call the police. My second act will be to probably get hold of the shotgun since I would have time to get it from my closet, aim the LED flashlight at the bedroom door at eye height, and wait. I will also activate the automobile alarm in the garage since I have the remote with me in the bedroom. Whatever they steal is covered by insurance and no one has threatened me even though I live in a castle state (South Carolina). I would think with all the bells and whistles going off that they would be leaving very quickly. If they try to open the bedroom door I will yell out the fact that they are making a bad mistake that will end their life; if they force the door open, they will be blinded by the flashlight and I will 12g the life out of them. UNTIL they open that door, I do not intend to open the door and try to become Rambo; I am content with my safety and hopes that the police will be showing up soon. Comments?

  5. #24
    Well Kelcarry.....I pretty much agree with everything you said if you live alone or with just a wife however, in my home, we have six children. So number one, our bedroom door remains open, any noise and i'm up with my Glock 23 in hand and straight to all the kids bedrooms. The kids know to stay put in their rooms and station myself in the corridor guarding them. In the meantime my wife is on the phone to 911. My wife also has a 9mm in hand for her protection. But first and foremost.....they have to get past our shepherd.

  6. #25
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    In a way it is this scenerio that the Florida Castle Doctrine law was designed to clarify. Again, we are discussing not necessisarly what you WILL do but what you are AUTHORIZED to do.

    The big question in this scenerio from an authorization standpoint has always been ... the bad guy is downstairs on the other side of a closed door and all persons are in this room with me ... so I would be violating the "go to the threat" rule to go after him. So Florida decided, My House, My Castle, New Rules!

    Florida decided that if your house is entered without your permission and WITH FORCE (which can be a little as prying a door or cutting a screen), then the bad guy has tipped his hand and the weight of the law ASSUMES that ALL of the criteria for deadly force have been met with no further checklist. So the second he enters the first floor with force, you are now assumed in danger of your life and have the legal right to go to the threat and nutralize it, as long as it is still inside the house.

    Additionally Florida thought it would be nice that should you be subject to this type of situation you deserve not to be further harassed by the perpitrators family, a bunch of scumbag lawyers or even the police so they added immunities to the law that say the victims family CANNOT sue and gave it weight by saying if some lawyer wants to try and it is found that it applies under the castle doctrine law that his side will wind up picking up the court costs ... a major deterient in the legal world.

    As far at the police, they need to have PROBABLE CAUSE that the case does not fall under Castle Doctrine to even do an initial arrest of the shooter eliminating that automatic harrassing interrogation that has been so previously prevolent. That is why this was such a great law lauded with such great promise when it passed even though other states have "stand your ground" laws.

    Perhaps even more amazing is that so far it has held up and worked VERY well and in most cases even gets the support of law enforcement and proscecutors (ok, at least private support, we all know public statements are often political not honest).

  7. #26
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    Hey ga.glockdog63 and 2beararms: Your replies are what I like about this forum--comments that added to my thought process, as I discussed in my previous post. My wife and I are retired so there are no little ones in separate rooms as was noted. Hopefully SC agrees with FL on castle doctrine; if someone comes into your home unannounced he should be aware that he is subject to anything and everything. I still think, in my circumstance, that staying in my locked bedroom and calling the police on cell is still the safest thing I can do.I know where I am, I have a bright flashlight aimed at the door and I am positioned with a 12g at an angle to the door so him shooting first will not affect me--if that door opens (G-d forbid) he will die. I carry a Kel Tec 380 around the house where there is a defined and fundamental right to use the pistol--it is next to nothing to carry and I am always a second away from defending myself without having to run around the house for the 12g or the 38, which are in the bedroom. After 67 years, I can honestly say I have NEVER been in a situation (home or in public) where having a concealed was necessary so I'll go with the odds that if I carry while walking the streets, where discharge becomes more problematic, I may get in more trouble than if I carried. Hey to each his own. Thanks guys for your input--it is a pleasure having these discussions with you.

  8. #27
    When not to use CCW...I think the correct answer should be to use it only in defense of self or one's immediate family. As Jeff Cooper said-- and I'll paraphrase so as not to mangle the good Colonel's original quote-- a lifelong dedication to deescalation, avoidance and deterence will help extend the length of your life. Kelcarry makes a good point-- 67 years of walking around the planet and he hasn't needed CCW. I hope that's the case for me too; however, I'm going to err on the "better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it" school of thought.

    If someone is clearly threatening me or my family, I will try to talk my/our way out of it and leave the area as expeditiously as possible. This hasn't happened in a long time, mostly due to avoidance of places where conflict is likely and having a physical detterent-- I don't think I look like a soft touch, nor as an active duty Army officer do I appear to be a small, easily defeated victim. Neither does my wife, who can bench her body weight and does more pull-ups than me. She usually leaves the CCW to me, and I haven't needed it yet.

    For the classic convenience store robbery scenario- in a situation like that, unless the clerk is going to get killed, I've got nothing invested in the situation and will probably get out of there alive by keeping calm, keeping my head down, and not being a hero. Accidentally shooting a bystander or the clerk in the crossfire would be much harder for me to live with than letting a robber go free, to say nothing of the compelling need to convince a jury that I was somehow threatened by the robber to the point that I needed to kill him. If I had to shoot the robber, it would be because I was personally threatened with imminent death or harm; if he shoots the clerk, it's automatically going to a murder case for him, so why not shoot the rest of his witnesses? His brandishing a weapon would not be a clear case for me to engage him, nor would firing it into the air, but attempted or actual assault with the deadly weapon would probably push me into combat mode.

    As far as home defense goes, Castle Law state or not, most of the homes I've lived in had the master bedroom on the second floor. If someone is on the second floor, I think there's a reasonable argument that life/limb are at risk. My wife and I have discussed this a few times. Household Battle Drill# 1 (React to Contact-- Intruder) is pretty simple...

    1) Person closest to the child's room goes and gets the baby, then goes to the bedroom, locks the door and gets away from the door, behind cover if possible. Call the police. Stay put until they arrive and knock on the bedroom door. Keep a firm hold on long gun (shotgun) and have backup weapon (pistol) available. Shoot intruder who comes through the locked door.
    2) If possible, person not in contact assumes good covered and/or concealed position in another bedroom and watches the stairs, with an angle of fire that will not carry rounds into the bedroom through the wall or door. If this is not possible, both parties take up good covered/concealed positions behind in the master bedroom, and assume good firing stances away from the door and at safe angles from each other.
    3) All clear is when person outside the bedroom says the "safety word" through the door. Two code words exist: one means that it is all clear, another one means that it is not all clear and I am being held at gunpoint. Other safety condition is the arrival of law enforcement.

    As I said, there's nothing complicated about this. All it took for me was short conversation with my wife and few goofy words (the sillier they are, the easier they are to remember). We say the safety words in public sometimes to describe certain situations, which is amusing and keeps them fresh in mind. Keeping a loaded weapon available with a toddler around is difficult but it can be done, safely, if the right steps are taken.

    Great thread, guys.

  9. #28
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    Just took the CCWP course with the Judys at Belttraining. Tom Judy knows his stuff and is good as it gets on all aspects of CC and gun management. Lisa Marie is as good as it gets on good home cooking and the admin side of the course. As I reviewed the SC law, I realize that outside of walking around there is little else you can do with a CC. You almost cannot go into any business establishment without approval (although the term is "willful" disregard of the law) and you cannot go to a restaurant that serves alcohol so, at night when you might want to have the gun, you are limited to a McDonalds with your wife. If it is a car altercation you have some leeway to have gun loaded as opposed to a non-CC situation. My personal take, as expressed before, is I can carry in and around my neighborhood, which is what I want to do and outside of having gun in car, find CC not very useful in town and almost not-useable at night, where my desired location is probably a nice restaurant with alcohol.

  10. Restaurants and alcohol

    It is my understanding that a restaurant that makes most of their money on food (ie Red Lobster) is different from a bar with chips and pole dancers. I can carry into Cheddars or Chillis but not The Mouse's Ear where there are topless dancers and food is not the focus of their service. That's my understanding in Tennessee anyway

  11. #30
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    Hey CaptVideo: You had better be sure of any and all CCWP conditions in TN. In SC, the word "willfuly" is clearly used in most of the CCWP conditionsm, which at least leaves you with an out for a misunderstanding but I believe (am not totally sure) that going into a Red Lobster can get you in trouble if they find out you have a CCW.Trying to find the specifics in the law but in the general CCWP law the idea of carrying in a restaurant w/bar is not included although it was discussed in my CCWP class and seemed fairly clear as a no no.

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