OK, You have a CCW. When NOT to use it? - Page 4
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Thread: OK, You have a CCW. When NOT to use it?

  1. #31
    Handgunlaw.us claims that as of 7/14/09, you may carry into restaurants that serve alcohol. Realize that it is the policy of Handgunlaw.us to NOT state weather or not you may go into a bar or the bar area of a restaurant or consume alcohol while carrying. For that info, you would need to find the exact writing of the law. Since this just went into effect a couple weeks ago, you might have a hard time finding an up-to-date version.

    SC on the other hand, (again, according to Handgunlaw.us) does not allow carry in a restaurant that serves alcohol.
    The two enemies of the people are criminals and government, so let us tie the second down with the chains of the Constitution so the second will not become the legalized version of the first. - Thomas Jefferson

  2.   
  3. CCW in Restaurants with booze

    Thanks for the good advice. My great friend, a retired policeman says that nobody in the establishment that serves mostly food should see or know you are packing heat. If you do scratch your head and your shirt ramps up, some folks may freak out and call the law. He says most police would respond and access the situation and probably ask you to step outside for a moment, check your permit, maybe inspect your CCW, then let you go. If the establishment has posted signs, leave it in the vehicle. He says that rarely would they 'draw down' on someone and greatly disturb the business.
    I don't carry much but since my Walther PPK is back from recall (380) I may carry a little more.
    But you are right that one should check the local laws
    Thanks,
    CaptVideo

  4. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Captvideo View Post
    If they have seen you, and sometimes they scope out the place before bearing, and notice that you have gone, they will either look for you or leave quicker. If you are, say, in the bathroom calling 911, you would have the advantage if they were to come back to look for you. Do what you have to do. If you are at the front counter, back off and if confronted, say something like 'hey, I don't have anything in this', stay very still, and hold your hands up, give them your wallet if they ask for it, etc.
    Personally I agree with most of your suggestions with exception to the "I don't have anything in this" statement.

    Yes you do. You're a witness to a crime and as such could ID the BG. If they intended to shoot the store owner, or anyone there, chances are high you're gonna get a bullet too. IMO, you should only back up if the drop is on you, otherwise take control of the situation for your safety and the innocent folks around you.

    If you're in the parking lot and witness the crime from outside, obviously don't intervene, fall back on the good witness side of the altercation. If confronted, the aggressor will most often prevail. And by aggressor I don't mean, just outta the blue become Johnny BA, but as of late, there are several robberies when the BG actually shot the victim even after complying with their demands. If you have your gun in your hands you have a 50/50 chance. Without it, well you can guess the rest.

    Each situation is drastically different and will require different tactics true, but one should always try to hang onto the tactical advantage. Just being aware of your surroundings is a huge step in the right direction. i.e. If your at the counter be aware of the parking lot and others in the store. Just a glance here and there every few seconds should take care of it for ya. If you see something outta place raise your defenses, DON'T show your weapon, but have the mindset to do so if needed. If you draw that sucker don't hesitate to pull the trigger if pressed! Chances are incredibly high that the BG is and will, if given the chance.
    When seconds count, the LEO's are only minutes away...

  5. #34
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    South Carolina/Charleston
    Posts
    2,388
    A New and Tragic Example: I live in SC and this is on front page these days. A Summerville man in Myrtle Beach for some golf with a friend gets onto a drive-in line at a McDonalds in the evening. He is being continually"honked" by the guy behind him. He moves his car out of the lane and then gets out of his car to approach the honker and they argue and the Summerville man punches the honker. Witnesses heard a "pop" and watch the Summerville man collapse and he eventually died. The honker took off in his car but witnesses noted the description of the car and police found the car, the honker, and the 9mm. The honker, who has a CCWP, has been charged with voluntary manslaughter instead of murder because he was being assaulted at the time. He is being charged because he easily could have retreated by driving away. Obviously either a jury or some pretrial situation will resolve this. Bottom line, at least the way I heard it during my CCWP class, is, if confronted in an aggressive situation, you are obligated to retreat--preferably loudly yelling "I do not want a problem with you" with your hands in the air as a sign of retreat (if anyone is within earshot, they will be important witnesses for you. If he comes at you with a bat and can cause personal injury that makes you fear for your life, AND you cannot retreat any further, then and only then can you use your CCW for defense. Yoiu do not yell "bring it on big boy" when you could easily leave.This case I mention will probably hinge on the honker fearing for his life once he got punched but, quite franky and based on what I currently perceive as the situation, he could easily have driven away before he was punched (I assume he got out of his car to confront this Summerville guy (WRONG MOVE THAT GOT HIM IN TROUBLE). Leaving the scene also does not help him (sure shows he knew what he did is wrong--forgetting about the time honored defense of "I was scared").
    COMMENTS?

  6. #35
    Kelcarry - getting a permit does not make you smarter, sometimes it just amplifies your chances of showing how stupid you are ...
    Just because someone is honking at you does not mean you need to get out and go confront the person.. IF you confront the person, you do not need to punch the person.. Obviously his blood was boiling when he pulled out of the lane and went over to confront the honker.. His choice, his consequences..
    I don't think you have to make announcements and raise your hands, but it is a good technique to support you if something does happen.. It surely beats punching someone in the face..
    In Floriduh, you car is part of your Castle Domain.. But there is still the argument that you initiated the situation with all your honking..
    I believe this is an example of dumb and dumber getting together for a Big Mac.. and is a bad example for gun owners everywhere..

    Gulf Coast, Floriduh
    Sccy is the limit

  7. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by kelcarry View Post
    ... Bottom line, at least the way I heard it during my CCWP class, is, if confronted in an aggressive situation, you are obligated to retreat--preferably loudly yelling "I do not want a problem with you" with your hands in the air as a sign of retreat (if anyone is within earshot, they will be important witnesses for you. If he comes at you with a bat and can cause personal injury that makes you fear for your life, AND you cannot retreat any further, then and only then can you use your CCW for defense.
    Not true at all.

    Section 16-11-420 of the SC Code of Laws states:
    SECTION 16-11-420. Intent and findings of General Assembly.

    (A) It is the intent of the General Assembly to codify the common law Castle Doctrine which recognizes that a person's home is his castle and to extend the doctrine to include an occupied vehicle and the person's place of business.

    (B) The General Assembly finds that it is proper for law-abiding citizens to protect themselves, their families, and others from intruders and attackers without fear of prosecution or civil action for acting in defense of themselves and others.

    (C) The General Assembly finds that Section 20, Article I of the South Carolina Constitution guarantees the right of the people to bear arms, and this right shall not be infringed.

    (D) The General Assembly finds that persons residing in or visiting this State have a right to expect to remain unmolested and safe within their homes, businesses, and vehicles.

    (E) The General Assembly finds that no person or victim of crime should be required to surrender his personal safety to a criminal, nor should a person or victim be required to needlessly retreat in the face of intrusion or attack.
    This is know as "Stand your ground".

    That being said, it would be a far stretch for the "Honker" to claim that he felt his life to be in iminent danger if he was just being punched through the window. However, if the "Puncher" was trying to enter the vehicle or forcibly remove the "Honker" from the vehicle, the shooting would have been legal. Of course in either case, driving away is always a bad idea.

    In a group (CCW holders) so large there is bound to be a bad apple here and there. Bottom line is, both these guys were idiots. One is dead and the other is going to jail.
    The two enemies of the people are criminals and government, so let us tie the second down with the chains of the Constitution so the second will not become the legalized version of the first. - Thomas Jefferson

  8. #37
    While I have not gotten my CCL yet, since I am stationed overseas[Germany] in the Army (currently deployed to Iraq); but I think that most people here have pretty good answers. I am sure that no one who has posted, and most people on this site would draw and fire their weapon on someone who was just verbally abusive.

    As to the whole "gas station/store robbery" scenario I think I would try to take out the perp in most cases. I know I am writing this down while I am not, nor have ever been faced with such a scenario. People have said that they would only respond if the perp was going to either attack the clerk or had killed him--I don't plan on waiting to find out if the clerk is going to be harmed. Perhaps this is just the rashness of youth, or foolhardy ideoloical romanticism. I figure if I can stop someone from being not only possibly murdered, but also robbed--its our duty as armed responsable citizens to intervene if the situation warrents thus.

    If you let the robber just flee with money or his life, or both--he will terrorize another person. More than likely he won't just change his ways after one close shave. And if you do nothing, this might even further his criminal ambitions by giving him an idea of it being easy, if there was no resistance. I am sure most petty criminals who rob at either gun/knife point aren't restricted to just robbery, perhaps rape, or burglery is in their job profile too. To simply let the perp get away because he isn't a threat to YOU doesn't make that honorable at all, but I would say rather ignoble.

    Sure it's not as if I am a cop or freaking James Bond, but I guess as an infantryman I have the mentality of stopping such injustices at every level. I hope to the Almighty that I am not going to wait for some poor clerk to get his brains plasterd all over cartons of Marlboros or Newports before I act.

    I can see not running after the perp or starting a high speed chase after the guy(honestly he shouldn't make it out of the store alive) unless the situation warrented pursuit.

  9. #38
    Put everything you own into your girlfriends name and never marry her..
    Because once the robbers family civilly sue you, they will take everything from you.. SO if you have nothing, they can't take anything.. Yes you have righted a wrong and you will pay the price of that for the rest of your life potentially, to the family of the scumbag.. So it's a loose/win for them, and a win/loose for you
    They loose a family member, but have a check that comes in from you (or directly from the government if it is your retirement check) for the rest of your life.. and you get to stand for what's right, and pay for that privileged for the rest of you life..
    You said it.. You are NOT a police person..
    IMHO
    In the words of Yota.. Choose wisely!!!


    Quote Originally Posted by armyman_83 View Post
    While I have not gotten my CCL yet, since I am stationed overseas[Germany] in the Army (currently deployed to Iraq); but I think that most people here have pretty good answers. I am sure that no one who has posted, and most people on this site would draw and fire their weapon on someone who was just verbally abusive.

    As to the whole "gas station/store robbery" scenario I think I would try to take out the perp in most cases. I know I am writing this down while I am not, nor have ever been faced with such a scenario. People have said that they would only respond if the perp was going to either attack the clerk or had killed him--I don't plan on waiting to find out if the clerk is going to be harmed. Perhaps this is just the rashness of youth, or foolhardy ideoloical romanticism. I figure if I can stop someone from being not only possibly murdered, but also robbed--its our duty as armed responsable citizens to intervene if the situation warrents thus.

    If you let the robber just flee with money or his life, or both--he will terrorize another person. More than likely he won't just change his ways after one close shave. And if you do nothing, this might even further his criminal ambitions by giving him an idea of it being easy, if there was no resistance. I am sure most petty criminals who rob at either gun/knife point aren't restricted to just robbery, perhaps rape, or burglery is in their job profile too. To simply let the perp get away because he isn't a threat to YOU doesn't make that honorable at all, but I would say rather ignoble.

    Sure it's not as if I am a cop or freaking James Bond, but I guess as an infantryman I have the mentality of stopping such injustices at every level. I hope to the Almighty that I am not going to wait for some poor clerk to get his brains plasterd all over cartons of Marlboros or Newports before I act.

    I can see not running after the perp or starting a high speed chase after the guy(honestly he shouldn't make it out of the store alive) unless the situation warrented pursuit.

    Gulf Coast, Floriduh
    Sccy is the limit

  10. #39
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    South Carolina/Charleston
    Posts
    2,388
    Hey Armyman 83: Firstly I wish you godspeed and hope and pray you return home safe. I for one respect and honor your duty to this country and offer my profound thanks for your service. My son in law is Army National Guard in South Carolina and I know how much his family sacrifices for his service. As to your scenario-in South Carolina they have the "alter ego" rule on self defense. It basically says that if you are witnessing an assault against someone else that, if it were you, would force you to believe that you are in imminent danger of your life, you have the right and perhaps the duty to use your resources to intervene, including the use of your CCW and deadly force. Like everything in this whole CCW subject, as HootmonSccy said, there are consequences to all our actions, particularly if the CCW is used--it better be crystal clear to you and hopefully other people (preferably they will be reliable witnesses) that the only course was the final inescapable choice. In South Carolina there are also clauses in the law that, if you have proven on a law-legal basis that you were correct in your use of deadly force, civil cases are not valid and are literally refused to be heard. Each state has differences that you must be aware of; before you act under your scenario, you should be sure of what your CCW rights and uses are and the consequences of your actions.
    Last edited by kelcarry; 08-03-2009 at 07:16 AM. Reason: punctuation

  11. #40
    Kelcarry, Thank you! It is because of good citizens like most everyone on this board that I am honored to serve.

    While I agree with HootmonSccy that you had best choose wisely I think that I would well be within my right and duty to stop the crime. Just because the robber hasn't shot or stabbed the store own doesn't mean he won't. As to the victims family taking all my money, in Alabama (like SC) if someone is cleared of criminal violations on the grounds of self defense, civil law has no claim. Even if it did, I would take my chances.

    In the words of the ancient Juvenal--"Believe it to be the greatest of all infamies to prefer one's exsistance to one's honor, and for the sake of life--remove every inducement to live."

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