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Thread: Could/should a CCW help a Police Officer?

  1. Quote Originally Posted by Hamilton Felix View Post
    I think gunsite's observation is very apt. If a cop shoots it out with a felon and takes out an innocent bystander (and by actual body count, police kill ten times as many innocent bystanders each year as private citizens, perhaps because police often arrive after the action begins), the felon will be charged for the death of the bystander the cop hit.

    One thing you can be sure of: If YOU screw up, that Police Dept. is NOT going to come to your aid. They will throw you to the wolves. Yeah, I recall the NRA writeup back in perhaps the early 1970's, when citizen they referred to only as the "deer hunter" took out a badguy at a rest area and saved a Texas Dept. of Public Safety trooper. He got an award, an engraved S&W from DPS, etc. But even then, one Prosecutor wanted to go after him for shooting the perp -- until he was informed there was NO Officer in the entire state who would arrest the man...

    This is 2010. The worst crime you can commit is doing the job the Police believe only they should do. Remember when "Sheriff Joe" Arpaio tried the throw the book at the Reservist who made a citizen's arrest of the Suburban full of illegals who tried to assault him at a rest area? Rape, robbery, murder may be bad, but Doing the Job (cops believe) Only Police Should Do will put you afoul of "Chief Officer's Ego" and it is the Very Worst and most vigorously prosecuted crime of all.

    Nope, I'm not even revealing I have a gun, unless I know that cop, like him, and consider him a friend for whom I'm willing to put my life on the line -- and that has nothing to do with any uniform he may or may not be wearing.
    This was a great post. You are entitled to your opinions, and they are probably wise, and well thought out. You're right, people love to hate "VIGILANTE'S". I personally love to hate real CRIMINALS. If this talk of vigilante justice would end, and community policing began, well..we probably wouldn't have to think about "should/could you help a cop in a shootout"
    Quick to the gun, Sure of your grip. Quick to the threat, sure of your shot. - Chris Costa

  2.   
  3. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by ClearSightTactical View Post
    If this talk of vigilante justice would end, and community policing began, well..we probably wouldn't have to think about "should/could you help a cop in a shootout"
    I really like this idea of community policing. This scenario shouldnt be one cop vs 4 BGs, and should you jump in to help. It should be 4 BG's vs a whole community of passerbyers, shop owners, etc, and one cop. Then the question of why werent you the first to aid should come up.

  4. The Past: I have a friend, Ken, a bit older than me. He grew up in N. Dakota on the Montana border, talks of riding a horse to school, storing his Winchester in the cloak room. When he was a kid, the County Sheriff would visit the ranch at times and talk with Ken's father. "Sheriff Joe" generally wore jeans and a sport coat, and usually did not belt on a gun. If he actually had to serve a warrant, he'd stick a .38 in his pocket.

    One day, young Ken asked the Sheriff, "Where's your gun, what if you need a gun?"

    Joe let his eyes sweep around the horizon toward the surrounding ranches, as he replied, "Oh, I figure there's plenty guns around here if it comes to that." What Joe was saying was that he KNEW every one of his neighbors would pick up a gun and back Joe's play if he needed it. He KNEW that. Any Officer who cannot say that today, should be aware that he and/or his department just failed a very important test.

    The Present: Police Officers are the servants and enforcers of the ruling class. They are tasked with revenue collection and enforcing ridiculous and worse laws that often trample the rights of citizens (A Washington State Patrol Trooper can make more stops than others in his unit, yet receive a royal ass-chewing because he fails to write tickets and take money from at least 75% of his stops). Police forces recruit Marines and other GI's, because they want warriors who will follow any order. They often speak of "police vs civilians," denying that Police ARE Civilians. Laws are passed, making Police "special" (lying to a citizen is normal interrogation for a cop, but lying to a cop is felony obstruction. Assaulting a cop, perhaps by touching him with a finger during conversation, is a worse crime than assaulting an ordinary citizen. Letting the air out of my tires is a prank; letting the air out of a cop's tires is felony obstruction...). Many of today's Officers are not the Peace Officers of old. Those men are retiring or have done so. I've worked with some of them and I miss them. This new breed of Enforcer is what the new ruling class wants. We've seen men rejected as "too intelligent for police work" for scoring too high on the entrance exam, fight it through the courts and lose.

    Beginning in earnest with the advent of speed radar and the crimogenic 55 mph limit in 1974, Police have become something that is no longer viewed by most members of society as friends. The Officer on the street had little to say in this. The politicians did it.

    I have said many times that we have too many police and FAR TOO FEW ordinary citizens who are willing to take responsibility for their own protection. Remember, some of the most infamous gangs of the old west where "shot to doll rags" by ordinary citizens. Once upon a time, prior to 1845, this nation survived without regular full time police forces (yes, the Texas Rangers existed, but the force which later became known as NYPD was not created until that year).

    Prediction: As the global financial meltdown and societal collapse worsens, we will be reminded that comfortable slaves tolerate much, but hurting and angry people do not. Uniformed Police will increasingly become the targets of people who "lose it" and strike back. Sure, the politicians really deserve it, but that uniformed cop, the one who comes up behind a worker with flashing lights and takes the money the worker needed to feed his family, will be the visible target of societal anger. This will become VERY bad before it ever improves. Police, already "running scared" of citizens, will become increasingly trigger happy.

    It is an unfortunate truth, that "helping" Police is increasingly dangerous. And, increasingly, Police regard all non-Police with suspicion. If you harm anyone, even at the direction of an Officer, your neck is out a mile. If you are perceived as "going too far," or in any way doing the job that should have been done only by Police, you will be prosecuted without mercy. "Choose carefully, Grasshopper."

    I'll stay with the position that I should know who I help. When we had a really decent young Deputy up here, some of us used to keep an eye out and watch out for him. We'd have backed him instantly. If I saw one of our Damned Tree Soldiers (native term for National Park Ranger) in a bind, I'd laugh and wonder if the other guy needed more ammo. When we had the psychotic Deputy here, most of us would have laughed and offered the other guy help. Know the score, know the game, or stay the hell out of it. The goal is to go home alive. The cop has the same goal, but your life is unimportant to his attainment of that goal, and he's damned near guaranteed a "good shoot" ruling if he says "I thought my life was in danger" (ask Amadou Diallo). The non-cop is damned near guaranteed a prosecution for homicide if he has to shoot.
    “The police of a State should never be stronger or better armed than the citizenry. An armed citizenry, willing to fight is the foundation of civil freedom.” Heinlein

  5. Quote Originally Posted by Hamilton Felix View Post
    The Past: I have a friend, Ken, a bit older than me. He grew up in N. Dakota on the Montana border, talks of riding a horse to school, storing his Winchester in the cloak room. When he was a kid, the County Sheriff would visit the ranch at times and talk with Ken's father. "Sheriff Joe" generally wore jeans and a sport coat, and usually did not belt on a gun. If he actually had to serve a warrant, he'd stick a .38 in his pocket.

    One day, young Ken asked the Sheriff, "Where's your gun, what if you need a gun?"

    Joe let his eyes sweep around the horizon toward the surrounding ranches, as he replied, "Oh, I figure there's plenty guns around here if it comes to that." What Joe as saying was that he KNEW every one of his neighbors would pick up a gun and back Joe's play if he needed it. He KNEW that. Any Officer who cannot say that today, should be aware that he and/or his department just failed a very important test.

    The Present: Police Officers are the servants and enforcers of the ruling class. They are tasked with revenue collection and enforcing ridiculous and worse laws that often trample the rights of citizens (A Washington State Patrol Trooper can make more stops than others in his unit, yet receive a royal ass-chewing because he fails to write tickets and take money from at least 75% of his stops). Police forces recruit Marines and other GI's, because they want warriors will follow any order. They often speak of "police vs civilians," denying that Police ARE Civilians. Laws are passed, making Police "special" (lying to a citizen is normal interrogation for a cop, but lying to a cop is felony obstruction. Assaulting a cop, perhaps by touching him with a finger during conversation, is a worse crime than assauling an ordinary citizen. Letting the air out of my tires is a prank; letting the air out of a cop's tires is felony obstruction...). Many of today's Officers are not the Peace Officers of old. Those men are retiring or have done so. I've worked with some of them and I miss them. This new breed of Enforcer is what the new ruling class wants. We've seen men rejected as "too intelligent for police work" for scoring too high on the entrance exam, fight it through the courts and lose.

    Beginning in earnest with the advent of speed radar and the crimogenic 55 mph limit in 1974, Police have become something that is no longer viewed by most members of society as friends. The Officer on the street had little to say in this. The politicians did it.

    I have said many times that we have too many police and FAR TOO FEW ordinary citizens who are willing to take responsibility for their own protection. Remember, some of the most infamous gangs of the old west where "shot to doll rags" by ordinary citizens. Once upon a time, prior to 1845, this nation survived without regular full time police forces (yes, the Texas Rangers existed, but the force which later became known as NYPD was not created until that year).

    Prediction: As the global financial meltdowna and societal collapse worsens, we will be reminded that comfortable slaves tolerate much, but hurting and angry people do not. Uniformed Police will increasingly become the targets of people who "lose it" and strike back. Sure, the politicians really deserve it, but that uniformed cop, the one who comes up behind a worker with flashing lights and takes the money the worker needed to feed his family, will be the visible target of societal anger. This will become VERY bad before it ever improves. Police, already "running scared" of citizens, will become increasingly trigger happy.

    It is an unfortunate truth, that "helping" Police is increasingly dangerous. And, increasingly, Police regard all non-Police with suspicion. If you harm anyone, even at the direction of an Officer, your neck is out a mile. If you are perceived as "going too far," or in any way doing the job that should have been done only by Police, you will be prosecuted without mercy. "Choose carefully, Grasshopper."

    I'll stay with the position that I should know who I help. When we had a really decent young Deputy up here, some of us used to keep an eye out and watch out for him. We'd have backed him. If I saw one of our Damned Tree Soldiers (native term for National Park Ranger) in a bind, I'd laugh and wonder if the other guy needed more ammo. When we had the psychotic Deputy here, most of us would have laughed and offered the other guy help. Know the score, know the game, or stay the hell out of it. The goal is to go home alive. The cop has the same goal, but your life is unimportant to his attainment of that goal, and he's damned near guaranteed a "good shoot" ruling if he says "I thought my life was in danger" (ask Amadou Diallo). The non-cop is damned near guaranteed a prosecution for homicide if he has to shoot.
    You're a very wise man. The story of Sheriff Joe was great. PD indeed has an "us vs. them" mentality. I for one would help an LE in trouble whether it be a dead battery or a shootout. The PD seems to forget who they are serving. I've seen many officers who treated everyone around them like scum bags, even the victim! I asked him what his deal was once (mistake..) and he said (scouts honor this was his exact reply)

    Look, these people chose to live in this neighborhood. Today they're the victim tommorow they're the suspect. I don't give a sh.... about any single one of these mother f..... my priority is myself, my partners, you, then civillians. Personally, I wouldn't bat an eye if the whole world exploded.
    Keep in mind this guy passed a psych eval...!?

  6. Quote Originally Posted by ClearSightTactical View Post
    Hey guys, I'm a member of another forum and this is a very hot topic lol.

    I'm going to post the exact question posted on the other forum and see what the responses here are like..
    The bad guy scenario pretty much says it all. Your intent is good but the Officer being shot at will most definitely see you as a Tango. He will be suffering from tunnel vision, loss of hearing and a mind racing fast enough to keep up with the fastest stock car on the NASCAR circuit. This will all be due to his nervous system being flooded by adrenaline. He won't hear you clearly and his extensive training will tell him that you mean him harm instead of good. You'll likely end up dead!! Call 911, state your emergency and ask them to advise you on what actions to take. Watching a LEO possibly die at the hand of 4 Tango's might leave you regretting not taking any action, but it beats getting shot by the very Officer whose life you're trying to save.

    djgunfan

  7. Quote Originally Posted by djgunfan View Post
    The bad guy scenario pretty much says it all. Your intent is good but the Officer being shot at will most definitely see you as a Tango. He will be suffering from tunnel vision, loss of hearing and a mind racing fast enough to keep up with the fastest stock car on the NASCAR circuit. This will all be due to his nervous system being flooded by adrenaline. He won't hear you clearly and his extensive training will tell him that you mean him harm instead of good. You'll likely end up dead!! Call 911, state your emergency and ask them to advise you on what actions to take. Watching a LEO possibly die at the hand of 4 Tango's might leave you regretting not taking any action, but it beats getting shot by the very Officer whose life you're trying to save.

    djgunfan
    Good post, I just have a question. Why does everyone think that officers have some master jedi weapon skill? "extensive training" Most people on this forum probably have more training than the average cop.

    PD's generally have a 5 day 40 hour course on weapons which includes live fire & classroom.

  8. Quote Originally Posted by ClearSightTactical View Post
    Good post, I just have a question. Why does everyone think that officers have some master jedi weapon skill? "extensive training" Most people on this forum probably have more training than the average cop.

    PD's generally have a 5 day 40 hour course on weapons which includes live fire & classroom.
    I agree, MOST departments have (Qualifications) basic classroom safety courses, and target shooting while practicing loading and or stances/positions.

    The above (Qualification Day) is great for practicing your MECHANICS, tactical/combat shooting is a different world, shooting on the move under stress changes everything. Point shooting is tactical survival skill, cover and moving is a survival skill, i don't think police train enough in tactical/combat situations.

  9. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by gunsite View Post
    I agree, MOST departments have (Qualifications) basic classroom safety courses, and target shooting while practicing loading and or stances/positions. i don't think police train enough in tactical/combat situations.
    Well, a lot of us do. I guess if the S ever does really HTF, this is an advantage for the patriots. It's one more reason to train, train, train.

  10. #69
    Join Date
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    as far as training goes, the pd here in my town have several homes the county bought just for training. and i highly doubt that the pd would train in a public venue with live ammunition. id help the officer and others that may be in the general vicinity of the shooting. id stay in the cops sight. if he sees me taking cover as well, he is less likely to shoot me. this is one of those 3rd party confrontations that they warn about in many courses. cops are better trained than what a lot of people think. especially now days as opposed to 25 years ago. being a former marine, when the scenario changes, you have to adapt to overcome. police are not that different now days.
    "You cannot discover new oceans unless you have the courage to lose sight of the shore."

  11. #70
    The cop will know you are a good guy because you are aiming and shooting at the bad guy.

    Take cover, move to where you have a different angle, and do what you have to do.
    "Gun a Month" Club Member

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