Could/should a CCW help a Police Officer? - Page 8
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Thread: Could/should a CCW help a Police Officer?

  1. #71
    I would say no - get yourself and anyone with you to cover, then call 911 and tell them what is happening. My CCW isn't really well suited to a prolonged gun battle anyway (6+1 capacity).

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  3. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by Hamilton Felix View Post
    The Present: ... Police forces recruit Marines and other GI's, because they want warriors who will follow any order ... Many of today's Officers are not the Peace Officers of old ... Once upon a time, prior to 1845, this nation survived without regular full time police forces (yes, the Texas Rangers existed, but the force which later became known as NYPD was not created until that year).
    Hamilton,

    It's true that police forces were at one time less militarized, but it is not a recent phenomenon. The NYPD was modeled after the London Met which themselves used a military structure.

    People think that SWAT began in the 1960s in L.A. when in fact the concept began in the 1920s with the NYPD Firearms Battalion. They recruited from among WWI vets and were armed with, among other things, weapons up through Browning Automatic Rifles (BARs) and tear gas.

    Policing had been going through a de-militarization period for some number of decades. One could see evidence of it, for example, in the aftermath of the North Hollywood shootout where responding LAPD officers had no rifles and not even slugs for their shotguns. Other evidence over time could be seen from bans on the use of the chokehold and bans on weapons like blackjacks and flatslappers.

    For a long time, even the very militarized NYPD had been pursuing a path of almost pacification as evidenced by it's long time use of .38 Special standard pressure RNL. They were very late among LEAs to adopt autoloaders and JHPs.

    This sorta stuff waxes and wanes from time to time in various parts of the country.
    Ken Grubb
    Puyallup, WA

  4. Our square dance club was camping on the 4 of July weekend at Prineville Res. in Oregon in the 1980's.
    It was about 10-11 o'clock at night when someone with a M16 started shooting tracers over our campsite and landing in the lake. We went to the Jasper Point campground and phoned the sheriff's office. About a half hour later a LEO showed up. He asked us to spread out and cover a hillside about a half mile long. I came across a site with a camper and truck parked without any lights on. I was searching around in front of the camper with a flashlight and found a unspent cartridge. There was about five of us and the LEO. I went down to our campsite and when the LEO showed up I gave him the tracer cartridge and told him where I found it. The next day we checked the campsite and the truck and camper was gone. We were all armed. We never heard what had happened. I assume since the LEO asked us to search the area and he noticed we were armed that we were legal.

  5. Interesting stuff, kengrubb. I also understand that some SWAT tactics, such as the way they stack up to rush entry to a room, were pioneered by the Gestapo.

    Face it, Police are SUPPOSED to be civilians, but they have always served the ruling class (an honestly elected Sheriff of a rural County might be an exception, as could a voluntary part time Constable of old), and rulers want the two functions served by the Sheriff of Nottingham:

    1. Take money for the ruler(s).

    2. Keep the serfs in line.

    BTW, I trust we all know Robin Hood was a good guy because he robbed the tax collectors and gave it back to the taxed. If he'd robbed the rich and given it to the poor, he'd have been just another damned commie.

    These days, drawing a gun and "helping" Police is like a serf armoring up and entering a Tournament intended exclusively for the Aristocracy: it's likely to buy you trouble. Things may still be different in some rural areas, but I think my observation is accurate with regard to virtually all population centers.
    “The police of a State should never be stronger or better armed than the citizenry. An armed citizenry, willing to fight is the foundation of civil freedom.” Heinlein

  6. @kengrubb: Tell me about wax and wane. The MSM was portraying every 'tango' as a paragon of virtue in New Mexico (still do),.. until the Hollywood video massacre and the Las Cruces bowling alley Massacres, along with several well publicized young girl victims of rapes and torture murders.
    We went Certified CCW soon after those little Play Times. Our well equipped and trained, Swat is now very aggressive. We now put 'em down quickly with 'one shot' experts. Many times, 'one a week'. We learned the hard way. Don't mess around with Career Repeat Violent Offenders, it gets innocent people hurt. Our Urban officers have real 'back-up' within seconds. In our city, 'Don't Get Involved'.
    If rural NM, and know the officers personally, only if 'They Ask You' for help. We, like most places now, have some serious Career Meth Heads and Dopers in the back country. Interstate highway rest stops are very dangerous. Sleep with one eye at a time, or post a guard.

    "The Man with a Sword is a Free Man, the man without is... a slave"

  7. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by Hamilton Felix View Post
    I also understand that some SWAT tactics, such as the way they stack up to rush entry to a room, were pioneered by the Gestapo.
    First time I've ever heard that alleged, but even if it's true, so what? The U.S. engages in mobile warfare, but that was originated by the Nazis with the Blitzkrieg. Does that make all of our service personnel National Socialists?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hamilton Felix View Post
    Face it, Police are SUPPOSED to be civilians
    I never said they weren't. Anyone not actively serving in the military, whether they have a badge in their wallet or not, is a civilian.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hamilton Felix View Post
    they have always served the ruling class
    It's far less of a problem here in the U.S. than elsewhere.
    Ken Grubb
    Puyallup, WA

  8. The U.S. engages in mobile warfare, but that was originated by the Nazis with the Blitzkrieg. Does that make all of our service personnel National Socialists?
    Well, lots of folks would argue we're socialist now or very close to it. Mussolini said "Fascism should rightly be called corporatism as it is a merger of state and corporate power.” By that definition, I'd say we're operating under Corporatism, or maybe "BigBankerism." There sure as hell isn't much liberty and individualism left these days. Our service personnel, including my Marine Corporal son, are good people doing their best to do the rotten jobs they've been handed by dirtbag politicians who would NEVER have initiated those missions if they had to lead from the front in the Spartan tradition. Like the Police, they are being used by the true evil in our society: Politicians.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Hamilton Felix
    Face it, Police are SUPPOSED to be civilians

    I never said they weren't. Anyone not actively serving in the military, whether they have a badge in their wallet or not, is a civilian.
    We agree. However, I am VERY concerned about the ongoing militarization of our Police, even to the extent that some training is done in Canada because it would violate Posse Comitatus to do it here. It will get worse before it ever gets better.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Hamilton Felix
    they have always served the ruling class

    It's far less of a problem here in the U.S. than elsewhere.
    I think that's because we've generally paid our Police well and tried to attract decent people. But the advent of the drug property forfeiture laws of the eighties has gone far to create a "greed rules" atmosphere in many courts and Police agencies. Again, it will get even worse.

    I am glad to hear that in some rural areas, Police can still count on help from the citizens -- that the citizens don't fear legal trouble too much to help.

    But I also heard that in those rural places, the citizens know their Police. I think we're back full circle to what I said earlier: If I know the man and am willing to put my life on the line for him, I will do so, regardless of whether he's wearing a uniform. And if I know he's an A--hole we're better off without, I'll sit back and watch, regardless of whether he's in a uniform.

    Bottom line: Make an INFORMED choice, because you will face the consequences.
    “The police of a State should never be stronger or better armed than the citizenry. An armed citizenry, willing to fight is the foundation of civil freedom.” Heinlein

  9. Interesting about "The Ruling Class" as stated by Hamilton. All throughout history the "Ruling Class" has...well...RULED.
    Even during Mob "Rule' as well as Anarchy, some "Class" RULES. ROL, is such because of "Rule Of Law". WROL is likewise "Without Rule Of Law". In ancient prehistoric times the 'Man' with the biggest strongest 'Arms' Ruled. The Sword, Club, Bow, Spear, Axe, Shield was far more effective in the hands of the person with the strongest "Arms'. 'ARMies' were organized by "The Ruling Class". The "Fire ARMS" started to equalize the various "Classes". The USA's amazing Constitutional Second Amendment was a major 'Equalizer' of individuals (to be protected at All costs), regardless of the strength of their "ARMS". At no time in history did the bottom tier (class) of society 'Rule'.

    "The Man With A Sword is A Free Man, the man without, is.... a Slave"

  10. Yes, the Founders figured it out: NO standing army, and all citizens armed, all force in the hands of The People.
    I agree, every man (or woman) with a gun means every man is more or less equal to the next.

    Didn't last long, did it? The first President to used armed forces against citizens protesting unjust taxation was Washington - twice. Adams did it once.

    Ms. Rand warned us:

    "We are fast approaching the state of the ultimate inversion: the stage where the government is free to do anything it pleases, while the citizens may act only by permission; which is the stage of the darkest periods of human history, the stage of rule by brute force."
    --Ayn Rand

    I fear we are about there.

    It has been said that "in a police state, it's good to be the police." I hope I live to see that one proven false.
    “The police of a State should never be stronger or better armed than the citizenry. An armed citizenry, willing to fight is the foundation of civil freedom.” Heinlein

  11. @Hamilton {In Ref to Possibile Police State**

    One major reason to chose wisely the piece of the world that one dwells.
    Even more reason to chose more wisely, the section of the Continent.
    Then comes the choice of the Country or Nation.
    Next choice is the State and County/District/Parish.
    The City becomes Extremely important, and finally Your Neighbors and Associates.

    Strange phenomena, is the fact that Family (including Friends) accounts for most of the Violent actions against Family.
    'Stranger Dangers' are far Fewer, according to established facts on 'Violence among members of society'.
    It all comes down to Choices..... "Choose Wisely Grasshopper".

    Freedom is a Powerful 'Double edged Sword'. Allowed Too Much Freedom,
    and we quickly revert to Barbarians, Preying on one another.
    Abuse or Take for Granted, that Precious Freedom.... and it Will be Taken Away.

    "The Man With a Sword is a Free Man, the man without is....a Slave"

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