Your CCW and Ammo Preference w/regards to Self Defense - Page 5
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Thread: Your CCW and Ammo Preference w/regards to Self Defense

  1. #41
    Rock Island Armory compact .45 Winchester 230 grain HP

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  3. #42
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
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    St. Louis/Missouri
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    578
    Glock 21 in a CrossBreed Super Tuck Deluxe with Hornady 45 ACP+P 200 gr HP XTP TAP FPD
    Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. We didn't pass it to our children in the bloodstream. It must be fought for, protected, and handed on for them to do the same. - Ronald Reagan

  4. #43
    Walther PPS40 w/180 gr. Win. JHP and Springfield XD45C w/230 gr. Win. JHP. I'll also shoot Remingtons in the same bullet weights.

  5. Quote Originally Posted by jtg452 View Post
    Both the 9mm and .45ACP issues are caused by low velocity. Most hollow points need a velocity of around 1000fps to work reliably. The 147gr Subsonic 9mm round was already only going 1000-1100fps (the speed of sound is 1140fps). Cut half an inch or more off the barrel and that small operating window slams shut. The same holds true for the 230gr .45 ACP rounds. The traditional .45ACP gold standard load, 230gr Ball, only goes 850-875 fps from a 5 inch gun. A 230gr +P is gonna be running between 1000 and 1100fps from a 5" barrel. Cut 3/4 of an inch or more off it and you can get 900-1000fps or even less very easily. (The rule of thumb in reloading is 1 inch = 50-150fps of velocity, depending on the powder used.)

    Once you get down to under 4 inches, the velocity really starts dropping fast. I discovered this when doing load development for the Rossi 720 in .44 Special I mentioned in my first post. Even with a 200gr bullet and a maximum powder charge, the velocity maxes out at around 700fps because it has a 3 inch barrel. Since I can't trust jacketed hollow points to work reliably at that velocity range, I just stopped using jacketed ammunition in the gun and found a factory made non-jacketed hollow point made with either pure lead or a very soft alloy to use instead.

    Just going to a +P version of a load isn't going to help in every situation. There isn't a 230gr .45ACP load out there that's going to get over 1000fps out of a 3" Officer's Model. To put it bluntly, there just ain't enough barrel there for the powder to burn long enough to give that kind of velocity with that heavy a bullet. Jacking up the powder charge just dirties up the gun more and increases the flash exponentially.

    If you are going to shoot a compact or a sub compact, go to a lighter bullet weight. In .45ACP, I only shoot 230gr defense loads in guns with 5 inches or more barrel. Commander length guns (4 1/4"+/-) use 200gr loads and Officer length guns (3") use 185gr loads. Most of the time, I go ahead and go with the +P load if it is available because I realize that .45's are marginal on velocity to begin with.
    NYSP went to the Glock 37 45 GAP because they want a slower larger caliber pistol like the 45 GAP for better knock down.I would take a G20 loaded with 200 grain Double Tap for deep penetration for shooting through car doors and windshields.The 45 ACP is a good choice for home defense because it won't over penetrate.The 165 grain Hydra Shok is a good round for the 1911 45 ACP IMO.

  6. Quote Originally Posted by hunter won View Post
    NYSP went to the Glock 37 45 GAP because they want a slower larger caliber pistol like the 45 GAP for better knock down.I would take a G20 loaded with 200 grain Double Tap for deep penetration for shooting through car doors and windshields.The 45 ACP is a good choice for home defense because it won't over penetrate.The 165 grain Hydra Shok is a good round for the 1911 45 ACP IMO.
    The problem with a 165gr bullet is that it's almost as big around as it is long in the .45 ACP. That lack of length means you don't have as long a bearing surface on the bullet while it is in the barrel and it can also cause stability issues and that will effect accuracy- especially at longer ranges. Besides, if I gotta go all the way down to a 165gr bullet, I might as well pull one of the .40 S&W guns out of the safe and use it instead. I get a couple more rounds in the mag doing that as a bonus as well. If I have to go that light, I might as well grab the hi-cap .38 Super or a Hi-Power. I can get 21 rounds in the .38 Super (130gr Corbon JHP in a self defense situation) if I use the mag with the extended floor plate and that's enough ammunition that I actually get tired of shooting it before the slide locks back.

    As for shooting through car doors and windshields, use ball ammo if you want penetration. The JHP is designed to expand and that expansion cuts down on penetration by transferring the energy into the target rather than maintaining it as momentum. Windshields aren't that big a deal after the first shot. A firearms instructor of my acquaintance did some tests on windshields a few years ago and found that the deflection of the bullet was a far bigger issue for the first round than any successive shots fired from both the inside (shooting out of the car) and the outside (shooting into the car). For a self defense situation, I don't see a need for that kind of penetration to begin with. Humans are soft targets and the biggest potential problem you find is over penetration and big, slow, heavy bullets are more likely to transfer their kinetic energy into the target than light, fast ones.

  7. Quote Originally Posted by jtg452 View Post
    The problem with a 165gr bullet is that it's almost as big around as it is long in the .45 ACP. That lack of length means you don't have as long a bearing surface on the bullet while it is in the barrel and it can also cause stability issues and that will effect accuracy- especially at longer ranges. Besides, if I gotta go all the way down to a 165gr bullet, I might as well pull one of the .40 S&W guns out of the safe and use it instead. I get a couple more rounds in the mag doing that as a bonus as well. If I have to go that light, I might as well grab the hi-cap .38 Super or a Hi-Power. I can get 21 rounds in the .38 Super (130gr Corbon JHP in a self defense situation) if I use the mag with the extended floor plate and that's enough ammunition that I actually get tired of shooting it before the slide locks back.

    As for shooting through car doors and windshields, use ball ammo if you want penetration. The JHP is designed to expand and that expansion cuts down on penetration by transferring the energy into the target rather than maintaining it as momentum. Windshields aren't that big a deal after the first shot. A firearms instructor of my acquaintance did some tests on windshields a few years ago and found that the deflection of the bullet was a far bigger issue for the first round than any successive shots fired from both the inside (shooting out of the car) and the outside (shooting into the car). For a self defense situation, I don't see a need for that kind of penetration to begin with. Humans are soft targets and the biggest potential problem you find is over penetration and big, slow, heavy bullets are more likely to transfer their kinetic energy into the target than light, fast ones.
    The 165 grain 45 ACP is intended for short range indoor use.I was saying that because most self sefense instructors are pushing for a large caliber lighter grain bullet because of all the feedback there getting from actual shootings involving the 45 ACP.I would use a G19 9mm loaded with a +P+ round like the 127 Winchester with HI-Capacity mags,easy to carry and over 92% one shot stops.The logic behind the 45 caliber is even if it doesn't expand it leaves a big hole.My concern is if you need to get a shot out far and the bad guy is using a barrier like hiding behind the door of an entrance to a home which can be very thick the 45 ACP may just stay in the door where a 9mm goes through.A very well documented shooting in Texas the bad guy got hit with a 357 Sig and that ended the fight the other Texas DPS Trooper was shooting his trusty 45 ACP 230 grain hollow points with no luck.This was a tractor trailer he was in.Texas DPS had so many problems with the 45 ACP with even point blank failures to stop one famous encounter caught on tape which was part of deady physical force training in the academy.The trooper reholstered his 45 ACP Sig 220 and advised he had just shot the guy, the struggle lasted over 5 minutes.Round hit the abdominal area, it was a 45 ACP 230 grain Winchester Ranger hollow point.I like the fast hard hitters like the 10mm.That has power Col.Jeff Cooper was the one who wanted LE & the military to go to this round.

  8. #47
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    Jan 2010
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    GLOCK 19 115gr Cor-Bon +P HP, S&W 649 .38 Spl 158gr Federal Nyclad +P, Colt 1911 .45ACP either Federal 230 Ball or Federal 230gr Hy-Shok HP.

    But, in Working Situations or where Mandated, I have and Do Carry .9mm Ball Ammo. I prefer to locate Geco 115gr FMJ Sub-Machine Gun Ammo as it is VERY Fast. Also in .38 Spl where I Can not Carry HP, I will try and locate 158gr SWC (+P Hopefully) for the Snub.

    God Bless and Stay Safe. "Captain"

  9. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by hunter won View Post
    NYSP went to the Glock 37 45 GAP because they want a slower larger caliber pistol like the 45 GAP for better knock down.I would take a G20 loaded with 200 grain Double Tap for deep penetration for shooting through car doors and windshields.The 45 ACP is a good choice for home defense because it won't over penetrate.The 165 grain Hydra Shok is a good round for the 1911 45 ACP IMO.

    To be honest here, the reason NYSP probably went to the 45GAP Glock 37 is because the guns were probably given to them or they may have made a profit. I know of a couple of Departments that were told by Glock that they could get the guns cheaper than any other Glock Pistol, and Glock would buy back their Glock 17's or 22's for more than they were paying for the new GAP pistols. The Department actually gets the new guns for a trade in and gets extra money for new ammo on top of that. Glock inturn, reconditions the older pistols and sells them to smaller Departments or Dealers, who can sell them as Police Trade-ins at a discount. It's a hard deal to pass up when you're a Department head with severe budget constraints. One department here traded in old department guns, Glock 17's and older S&W 659's, got the Glock 37's, extra mags and had money left over. Glock wants desperately to keep this gun and caliber alive. Nothing like having a cartridge with your name on it, and Police Departments "adopting it" as there caliber "of choice".
    There's Something Goin' On Here, and it Ain't Funny!!!

  10. #49
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    Magnum Research Desert Eagle .50 w/ Hornady 300gr. xtp jhp.
    "You cannot discover new oceans unless you have the courage to lose sight of the shore."

  11. Quote Originally Posted by 1911 Headbanger View Post
    To be honest here, the reason NYSP probably went to the 45GAP Glock 37 is because the guns were probably given to them or they may have made a profit. I know of a couple of Departments that were told by Glock that they could get the guns cheaper than any other Glock Pistol, and Glock would buy back their Glock 17's or 22's for more than they were paying for the new GAP pistols. The Department actually gets the new guns for a trade in and gets extra money for new ammo on top of that. Glock inturn, reconditions the older pistols and sells them to smaller Departments or Dealers, who can sell them as Police Trade-ins at a discount. It's a hard deal to pass up when you're a Department head with severe budget constraints. One department here traded in old department guns, Glock 17's and older S&W 659's, got the Glock 37's, extra mags and had money left over. Glock wants desperately to keep this gun and caliber alive. Nothing like having a cartridge with your name on it, and Police Departments "adopting it" as there caliber "of choice".
    The NYSP did have some good and bad with the 9mm G17.The real answer is shot placement,I believe Glock made a sweet deal because they approached my dept back in 2007 but we could not go ahead because of the ammo cost plus the new holsters.Here is what I know about the G38 since I used it on a hunt.The G38 45 GAP 200 grain Gold Dot round is easy to shoot not loud like the 45 ACP.I did shoot a doe at 15 yards,the bullet hit just above the front leg and took off running in the field I was able to get it on the run with my 30-30 leveraction which I shot about 90 yards away.When gutting out the deer the bullet came out,no mushroom it was hard to tell because the 170 grain 30-30 destroyed the heart and lungs with a big exit hole.I had another tag and hunted later that day shot a coyote.This shot spun him around distance was about 20 yards I fired another shot and hit above the front leg.I climbed down from my tree stand and fired a final shot so the coyote wouldn't suffer.Two bullets were recoverd the third did exit.This was an adult coyote about 45-50 pounds.The bullets don't expand,I think a +P version may help.I think a 185 grain would be a better choice in the 45 GAP.I would stick with are current weapon a G19,the G38 is under 10 shots that means less ammo.Glock is making some very attractive deals now on the 45 GAP, prices on ammo is lower than the 45 ACP now.

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