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Thread: New Guy w/ ?

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by HootmonSccy View Post
    Just to get you going CapGun.. Why not a 9MM??? The OP has shot a 9MM before, and it was good enough for the Military..
    I love the .45 myself, and I am not knocking it.. a 9MM IMHO is big enough to do most jobs needed..



    atluga1 - as suggested, try a few, then decide..
    Hey Hoot. Hows it going. I will pm you regarding your last pm.

    Nope, won't get me going. The 9mm is a great and very versatile round. Got my CX4 Storm carbine in 9mm.
    I just suggested the .40 because I think it is the closest to the .45 with other positive attributes>>>> cost and amount of rounds you can put in a mag vs the .45.

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  3. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unfettered Might View Post
    I agree.

    9mm is an excellent round and if you need the minuscule 10,000 of an inch expansion difference between a 45 and a 9mm to make a difference, you need to train more on your marksmanship. One will have more control of the recoil from a 9mm, hence you will be able to reacquire your target faster if you do miss or don't strike any vitals the first time. Also the ammunition is far cheaper and you can carry a lot more rounds.

    Do your job and the bullet will do its.

    Bigger is not always better, in fact some of the 40 and 45 calibers have too much penetration. What do you think is going to happen when you hit a guy square in the chest with a round shown to have 15 inches of penetration? It has the potential to go through him and hit an innocent bystander.

    If you do decide on a 40 or 45, do your ballistics research and go for rounds that test out around 12 inches.
    Worthy advice on the ballistics check! +1 for you

  4. My advice? Go shoot some different guns (rentals, friends with guns that will let you try them, ...) and find what actually fits your hand and what you can actually shoot accurately. Shooting a gun that you can't hit with is nothing but frustrating and a waste of money, time, powder and shot. I don't know about you but I don't have the time or the money to throw it away like that.

    I used to work in a gun store. Folks would come in and say, "I want a .45 (or .44 or Desert Eagle in .50AE)," and had no clue what they were getting. They had just seen them in movies and read all about them in the gun rags. We'd sell it to them and they'd either come back in to trade it in for something else or they'd fire a box of ammo out of it and stick it in the sock drawer, never to see the light of day again.

  5. #14
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    Thanks for the compliment Capgun, I just take this stuff pretty seriously is all.

  6. #15
    Read the horror stories section in the guns & ammo. There's not an issue where some shmuck with a "9" shot a guy 15 times and the guy kept coming.
    Being a "zippy" fast round the 9mm FMJ penetrates about the same as the slow 45.
    I'm sure the 9mm is better than a .25, but in a real combat situation, I might not get but one shot. paper targets at the range stand there and let you empty the clip. If I might o nly get 1 or 2 shots, I want them to be as devastating as possible.

    Sure the military uses it now. The fact is, most soldiers HATE it (except for mail clerks and medics). Most of us grunts still want the .45 and acquire one as soon as possible. Special Ops still uses the .45 AND the only reason the guvment changed was so they would be able to use NATO issue ammunition in a bind.

    When both of these rounds are fired into calibrated 10% ballistic gelatin, 124-gr. Speer 9mm Gold Dot averages about 13" penetration and expands to approximately .57". The 230-gr. 45 ACP Gold Dot averages approximately 13.5 - 14" and expands to .70". I didn't go to college or nuthin, but ".57" seems a bit smaller than ".70", not 10,000 of an inch.

    So far as "impact", a 9mm Remington 147-gr. Golden Saber averages about 1030 ft/sec. The 45 ACP 230-gr. Golden Saber averages about 870 ft/sec. Ask yourself, would you rather get t-boned by a slow moving tractor trailer or a fast moving Pinto?


    AND by the way, this is why you hear the stories on CNN and FOX news where the cops (with "9's") shot some guy 32 times. Cause they knew they had to to stop him.
    In the beginning, the patriot is a scarce man -- brave, hated, and scorned. But when his cause succeeds, the timid join him. For then, it costs nothing to be a patriot. -- Mark Twain

  7. #16
    I think it'll likely come down to your personal preference! I would encourage you to go get hands on as many weapons in your price range as you can handle! That way you'll have the opportunity to find a gun that is best suited to your liking.

    As far as caliber goes... that too is a personal preference. I have a few buddies who won't buy anything but the 45. However, there are plenty of facts to back the dependability and effectiveness of other calibers like the 9mm, 40 S&W, and others!

    Quote Originally Posted by matthewaynelson View Post
    My CCW is an H&K USP 40. I use the Winchester Silvertip 155 grain jacketed hollow point (X40SWSTHP). The 40 S&W round has an established and excellent track record on the street. I use the 135-155 grain JHP load because it kicks less and has higher kinetic energy and stopping power than the 180 gr. JHP loads.
    For a new gun, Ruger is one brand that would fit in your price range—I have had a P89 9mm since 1993 and have been very pleased with it—Ruger makes a dependable semi-auto and they have all the caliber sizes you’d be interested in considering. And in the used variety, you’d likely be able to find a bargain in your price range in just about any brand (well... maybe not Colt!).

    Anyway you go, I wish you good luck in finding yours! :)
    Blessed be my God, my mountain, who trains me to fight fair and well! Psalm 144 (msg)
    ...follow me at twitter.com/matthewaynelson

  8. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by RugerP345 View Post
    Read the horror stories section in the guns & ammo. There's not an issue where some shmuck with a "9" shot a guy 15 times and the guy kept coming.
    Being a "zippy" fast round the 9mm FMJ penetrates about the same as the slow 45.
    I'm sure the 9mm is better than a .25, but in a real combat situation, I might not get but one shot. paper targets at the range stand there and let you empty the clip. If I might o nly get 1 or 2 shots, I want them to be as devastating as possible.
    There's also not a case where a guy with a 9mm shot a guy twice in the head and he kept coming.

    Quote Originally Posted by RugerP345 View Post
    When both of these rounds are fired into calibrated 10% ballistic gelatin, 124-gr. Speer 9mm Gold Dot averages about 13" penetration and expands to approximately .57". The 230-gr. 45 ACP Gold Dot averages approximately 13.5 - 14" and expands to .70". I didn't go to college or nuthin, but ".57" seems a bit smaller than ".70", not 10,000 of an inch.
    Well, according to the ballistic data for Winchester Ranger ammo, their 9mm +P round expands to .7 while the 45 +P expands to .79 in gelatin so that's actually a difference of 900 of an inch, I rounded to 1000 and accidentally typed 10,000 for some reason.

    Oh and thanks for the snide, "I didn't go to college or nuthin" remark, fairly immature there bub. I think a more politely worded correction would have sufficed.

    Quote Originally Posted by RugerP345 View Post
    So far as "impact", a 9mm Remington 147-gr. Golden Saber averages about 1030 ft/sec. The 45 ACP 230-gr. Golden Saber averages about 870 ft/sec. Ask yourself, would you rather get t-boned by a slow moving tractor trailer or a fast moving Pinto?
    I would rather get hit by nothing, that's why I shoot to stop the threat's ability to function. Besides, "knock down power" is a myth.

    In order of importance;

    Penetration
    Expansion
    Momentum
    Bullet construction
    Muzzle energy

    If we go by muzzle energy, since it's the force that "knocks down" people.
    9 mm 115g +P Energy 437 ft lbs
    45 230g Energy 495 ft lbs (I couldn't find a result for a +P)

    For a point of reference, once when I was at a carnival I punched one of those punching machines and managed 350 ft lbs, so a 9mm hits with 87 more ft lbs and the 45 hits with 145 more ft lbs than I can punch someone and I'm 6' and 190 lbs. Does it sound like I could take anyone off their feet with one punch that they are expecting, unless they fall for fear of being hit again, even if my punch was 42% stronger? Nope. Does it sound like I can stop someone from shooting me back just by hitting them with a larger round? Definitely a nope

    Quote Originally Posted by RugerP345 View Post
    AND by the way, this is why you hear the stories on CNN and FOX news where the cops (with "9's") shot some guy 32 times. Cause they knew they had to to stop him.
    It's far more complex than just the caliber of the bullet used. Most people, LEOs included, fire in "panic" mode and in the process empty their clips regardless of the threat level posed by the target. Then you figure the possible math into it, these people aren't psychically connected so no one knows how many each has fired, just three LEOs can empty 2/3 of a clip or so and approximately achieve your arbitrary number of 32 and it all happens in seconds.

    Basically, a 45 is no more effective than a 9 if one is shot in the head or heart and that takes marksmanship not ballistics. Train more and quit relying on a round to compensate by forcing a rapid blood pressure drop. That takes time and they can still shoot back, something I'm trying to stop in the first place.

    Oh and I emailed my shooting partner about this and this was his opinion on the matter and I QUOTE,

    "shoot 'im in tha' head"...(quote taken from badguy from the movie blankman....alley scene when they discover blankmans' suit is bullet proof"....fact: a 45 has much higher recoil and takes twice as long to realign followup shot....fact:i can control the recoil of my 9mm to almost nothing.....fact: if i doubletap with black talons into your chest and i can hit you 3 more times before your corpse hits the ground you wouldn't know whether you got shot with a 9mm or a .45....fact: blood pouring from a .6-.7 inch hole will kill the **** out of someone...(let alone 2,3,4 or 5 holes) ....fact: i become completely distracted if i suddenly get a 1/16th inch splinter in my finger let alone a ******* bullet in my body....fact: FMJ is for the paper at the range and badassmuthafukkin hollow points are for self defense.....fact: it doesnt matter if it is a 9mm or .45 it matters who gets hit first...practice, practice, practice...fact: **** your .45.......send this to him courtesy of me,,...
    END QUOTE

    He's a little more forward than I am....

    Oh and for your viewing, WARNING NOT WORK OR KID FRIENDLY

    YouTube- 9mm to the head = your dead

    ......it'll do the same thing from 21 feet.

    Did anyone here ever hear the story of the LEO that shot an obese man with a 357 5 times and ends up dead from a shot with a .25?

    http://www.odmp.org/officer/420-troo...-hunter-coates

    Now I'm postulating that the reason the LEO only fired 5 shots is because that's all his revolver held, higher capacity is better. Sure he could have reloaded, but it doesn't sound like he had time or the presence of mind to do so. Granted the guy got a lucky shot because of the vest, but he faced off against a larger caliber handgun and prevailed. The scumbag deserved far worse than life in prison, but I digress.

    You do your job and the bullet will do it's.





    atluga1, If you want my opinion, get a quality 9mm. Personally I suggest a Taurus PT92 with Winchester Ranger (RA9TA) in a 127 grain or preferably a 147 grain but I am having trouble finding it. The firearm is solid and well built, it feels good in my hands and the stainless steel version is just downright pretty. Load that up with 15-19 rounds, depending on clip size. Practice your marksmanship, standing AND running. Practice with a partner with a chronograph using audible signals to draw to improve your times, firing two shots. Get good at center mass shots and then work up to head sized shot placement. Practice, practice and practice some more and you will be a force to be reckoned with.

  9. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Unfettered Might View Post

    If we go by muzzle energy, since it's the force that "knocks down" people.
    9 mm 115g +P Energy 437 ft lbs
    45 230g Energy 495 ft lbs (I couldn't find a result for a +P)
    Didn't mean the college thing towards you. It is just an adage more or less, meaning I'm no physics major or lab technician anything genius like that.

    Not so sure you're right about that. For instance, you could get a number two pencil traveling at 2000 FPS and it wouldn't do much but put a painful hole clear thru you but you could get a lightpole traveling at 1 foot per second and it would knock you on your ass.

    Muzzle energy is worthless if you can't transfer that energy to the target. This is why hollow points are so effective, they expand and give a larger contact surface, transferring the kinetic energy of the round to the target.



    Basically, a 45 is no more effective than a 9 if one is shot in the head or heart and that takes marksmanship not ballistics.
    That's true. One should train in hitting the target, not trying to find some "magic bullet".











    .
    In the beginning, the patriot is a scarce man -- brave, hated, and scorned. But when his cause succeeds, the timid join him. For then, it costs nothing to be a patriot. -- Mark Twain

  10. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by RugerP345 View Post
    Didn't mean the college thing towards you. It is just an adage more or less, meaning I'm no physics major or lab technician anything genius like that.
    I see, then I retract my response to your comment as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by RugerP345 View Post
    Not so sure you're right about that. For instance, you could get a number two pencil traveling at 2000 FPS and it wouldn't do much but put a painful hole clear thru you but you could get a lightpole traveling at 1 foot per second and it would knock you on your ass.
    I understand your using extremes to try to make your point, but a 9mm is a bit larger than a pencil and a 45 is WAY smaller than a telephone pole. Neither will knock you on your ass against your own will unless they cause an immediate shock or shutdown to the nervous system. It's been said there's enough oxygen in the brain to function for 20-30 seconds after your heart stops. Granted, in the real world someone probably isn't going to have the presence of mind to fire back, but a third shot to the head will assure it.

    Quote Originally Posted by RugerP345 View Post
    Muzzle energy is worthless if you can't transfer that energy to the target. This is why hollow points are so effective, they expand and give a larger contact surface, transferring the kinetic energy of the round to the target.
    I completely agree.

    Quote Originally Posted by RugerP345 View Post
    That's true. One should train in hitting the target, not trying to find some "magic bullet".
    Again I completely agree.

    Plus you can't forget, when the zombies come, which handgun round will be more plentiful?

  11. Thnaks for all the information. I did go by a store yesturday and looked at a bunch of guns and alot of the stuff the guys were saying are the same things you guys are. The one I liked the most was a Taurus PT 840 so I am going to try it out on the range and see how it feels.

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