How would you have reacted to this??? - Page 3
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Thread: How would you have reacted to this???

  1. The duties, responsibilities and privileges of a LEO are quite different than a civilian with CCW. Once the ability and opportunity to cause jeopardy are resolved, you have no self defense. Shooting bad guy that is moving away from you to prevent a future crime could be construed as murder. Many options to how to handle this situation, but waiting for the bad guy to turn his back to shoot him is a very dicey affair to consider. My vote on that option is still an absolute no.

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  3. #22
    Join Date
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alaska444 View Post
    The duties, responsibilities and privileges of a LEO are quite different than a civilian with CCW. Once the ability and opportunity to cause jeopardy are resolved, you have no self defense. Shooting bad guy that is moving away from you to prevent a future crime could be construed as murder. Many options to how to handle this situation, but waiting for the bad guy to turn his back to shoot him is a very dicey affair to consider. My vote on that option is still an absolute no.
    I have to agree, anytime you shoot anyone in the back it will be considered murder. If your house is being robbed and you catch the BG, and the BG turns and runs away, and you shoot him in the back while running away, it is murder. No one is considered a threat to you if they are running away or leaving the scene. I doubt very much that you will find a jury that will determine that your life was in danger under those circumstances. My vote on that option is an absolute NO also.
    ~ Truth Is Hate To Those Who Hate The Truth ~

  4. #23
    I just remembered another one from about 2 years ago. A guy here was waiting outside a grocery store fore his wife and while talking to her on the cell here commotion and she says there are guys inside with guns pulling a stick up. The husband runs inside and pulls his gun. The two BG's run out. The husband shoots one as he is running out the door in the back side. Another no bill. Bg after medical attention goes to jail. Of course again this is 'Texas.
    By faith Noah,being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear,prepared an ark to the saving of his house;by the which he condemned the world,and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith Heb.11:7

  5. #24
    handgonnetoter Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by HK4U View Post
    Read the Texas penal code from cover to cover. Let me know what you find.
    I don't know for sure, but I believe Texas gives it's citizens more leeway when it comes to self defense than some of the other states. I've seen stuff on the news, that went down in Texas, and if it would have happened here in Indiana there would be problems for the poor guy that was defending himself. Think its time to move to Texas.

  6. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by handgonnetoter View Post
    I don't know for sure, but I believe Texas gives it's citizens more leeway when it comes to self defense than some of the other states. I've seen stuff on the news, that went down in Texas, and if it would have happened here in Indiana there would be problems for the poor guy that was defending himself. Think its time to move to Texas.
    Come on down. We need all the God fearing patriots we can get.
    By faith Noah,being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear,prepared an ark to the saving of his house;by the which he condemned the world,and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith Heb.11:7

  7. #26
    Join Date
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alaska444 View Post
    CCW allows you to shoot to stop in a situation where the aggressor has the ability, the opportunity and imminent jeopardy to cause great bodily harm or death to you. We are not authorized to shoot to kill, so I would not recommend making a statement like yours above. Since this is a public forum, it could come back to haunt you in a later courtroom if you are ever involved in a situation. Lastly, when the bad guy is getting out and running away loses the effect of imminence. I don't believe that is the right time to think of shooting to stop, he has already ended the threat to you. Shooting to kill a BG to prevent a future crime is a crime in itself. I would not go there. Just came back from my NV CCW class today so all these issues are quite fresh in my mind.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alaska444 View Post
    Having now taken 3 ccw classes in the last 3 months, we most certainly do not have the express authority to shoot to kill, only to stop. If they stop because they are dead, then that is the risk that they took when the instigated the aggression. A lawful shooting is one where we intended only to stop the threat and it must be immediately related to a threat to great bodily harm or death. If the threat is leaving the car, you will be on very shaky ground to say the threat was still imminent and may actually be considered murder especially if you have stated in public that is what you would do in that circumstance. In addition, preventing future crimes is NOT an authorized CCW right either. What we say on public forums can and have in certain cases come back to haunt the person who stated them. The last class I took in Las Vegas really brought home how great a responsibility we have with CCW permits. That should permeate our public forum talks as well. It is discoverable evidence mind you should some one want to know what you really think about different situations.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alaska444 View Post
    The duties, responsibilities and privileges of a LEO are quite different than a civilian with CCW. Once the ability and opportunity to cause jeopardy are resolved, you have no self defense. Shooting bad guy that is moving away from you to prevent a future crime could be construed as murder. Many options to how to handle this situation, but waiting for the bad guy to turn his back to shoot him is a very dicey affair to consider. My vote on that option is still an absolute no.
    And if this incident had taken place in Nevada I would agree with your position, however it did not ... it took place in Florida.

    Under Florida law if someone enters your car by force that indeed does authorize the use of DEADLY force without further need of reason. Florida law in fact ONLY authorizes the use of DEADLY force and it is not recommended that you try to "shoot to stop".

    Additionally as the guy was making the hop out of the car and heading for the new vehicle, if it could be determined that this was a second car jacking and the vehicle was occupied then again the use of DEADLY force would indeed be authorized to PREVENT the forcible felony even though no life threatening action was imminent to you at the moment (it is automatically assumed in Florida that the victim in car 2 is in the imminently threatened position, however, the law authorizes the DEADLY force to PREVENT any forcible felony, not only to neutralize the threat).

    Under these circumstances, in Florida had the perpetrator been shot at any point during the initial carjacking or in motion from one to other (if the shooter could reasonably confirm that this was a second carjacking and not the perp hopping into a "get away car", which is likely in this scenario and would negate the authority to use deadly force) then the actions IMHO would be considered justified under Florida law and the shooter would not be arrested or prosecuted and would be held exempt from civil action by the perpetrators family.

    BTW: I wish all posters would add their state to their profile so it displays. The laws vary so much from state to state that it is so important in discussion to know what state you are discussing. If you are going to discuss law, be certain to look it up FOR THE STATE YOU ARE DISCUSSING not base your opinion on your course for YOUR state.

    Following Florida law in Nevada obviously will get you in big trouble as will not knowing the law of any state you may be in.

    Remember it is the law of where you ARE, not where you live that you must follow!

  8. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Ringo View Post
    "... anytime you shoot anyone in the back it will be considered murder....
    My vote on that option is an absolute NO also."
    Again, I caution against believing absolute statements. If you are in fear of your life, you are at least morally justified in stopping the threat. Yes, proving it may be difficult but that is the source of the cliche, "Better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6". Certainly, as many are pointing out and others are ignoring, there are cases where a crime is still in progress or reasonable expectations of danger to others exists and it will not be deemed "murder". Equally ignored are the actual laws in some states which have explicitly authorized this reaction in specific situations involving your home and property.
    Reality, DEAL with IT!

  9. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by ecocks View Post
    Again, I caution against believing absolute statements. If you are in fear of your life, you are at least morally justified in stopping the threat. Yes, proving it may be difficult but that is the source of the cliche, "Better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6". Certainly, as many are pointing out and others are ignoring, there are cases where a crime is still in progress or reasonable expectations of danger to others exists and it will not be deemed "murder". Equally ignored are the actual laws in some states which have explicitly authorized this reaction in specific situations involving your home and property.
    Shooting in the back is not murder in Texas. If am am justified in shooting where I shoot the BG does not matter. If I were at a mall and an active shooter is in there I will not wait to shoot until he turns toward me.
    By faith Noah,being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear,prepared an ark to the saving of his house;by the which he condemned the world,and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith Heb.11:7

  10. #29
    JSDinTexas Guest

    Another Approach maybe?

    After reading all the posts, I saw one that was not mentioned (Second):

    First, I always keep my doors locked and windows up - we have AC in the cars in Texas.

    Second, I might have bailed out of the vehicle and let him have it. (I know, if I had time and wanted to take the risk of getting shot since the article says the BG got the drop on the guy)

    Third, there is no correct answer here except "all the above" because I have come to believe that every incident has its own elements and corresponding reactions.

    And bottom line is I am with HK4U - shoot them - dead! And Texas law will back that up 99.99% of the time.

  11. #30
    To show you how different Texas is in its view of criminals check out the following. This guy did a lot of things wrong and was not very smart and yet was no billed. Listen to the 911 call.

    Gun Training Report #37 What NOT To Do When Your Neighbor's House is Being Burglarized...

    From: Dr. Ignatius Piazza
    Founder and Director
    Front Sight Resorts
    Gun training | Firearms Training
    What NOT To Do When Your Neighbor’s House is Being Burglarized...



    Dear Subscriber,

    Here is an intense, real life example of someone making several flagrant mistakes in their 911 call to report two men burglarizing a neighbor's home.

    The 911 dispatcher does a fantastic job of counseling and advising the caller, but the situation escalates into the caller shooting and killing the two burglars as they left his neighbor's home.

    The shooter's actions resulted in a firestorm of public outcry from all sides of the issue, forcing a Grand Jury to ultimately determine the fate of the shooter.

    First, listen to the actual 911 call and then I will discuss the event and the actions of the shooter. You will need to turn up your speakers so you can make out all of the conversations.

    There is a problem playing this video. Please make sure you have the latest version of the Flash Player installed and restart your browser.

    If this still does not work, contact Front Sight Support.

    Points to consider from this 911 call:

    1. It took over 7 minutes for the police to respond to this extremely urgent 911 call. You can expect at least that amount of time or more should you ever need the police. Remember that when seconds count, the police are just minutes away…
    2. 911 calls are recorded and will be used as evidence against you if you make a decision or take action that results in criminal investigation or civil litigation.
    3. NEVER, EVER say you are going to kill anyone. If you must shoot, you are shooting to stop an attack. Shooting with the intent to kill elevates your “reaction to a deadly threat” to “premeditation to kill” and can be used against you by a criminal prosecutor or civil lawsuit attorney.
    4. The reason you call 911 is because you fear for your life and need emergency help, not because you are pissed off and want something done about it. NEVER, EVER say, “I ain't gonna' let em' go… I'm going to shoot…”
    5. Never challenge or argue with the 911 dispatcher who tells you, “You're gonna' get yourself shot if you go outside that house” with a response like, “Wanna bet? I'm gonna' kill em'.”
    6. A crow bar IS a deadly weapon BUT ONLY IF your assailant is close enough to use it (21 feet or closer) AND is showing INTENT to use it to inflict serious bodily injury or death. There was only one crow bar.
    7. Note the two rapid shots and then what sounds like a third shot a significant amount of time (about 8 seconds) later. Although you cannot determine shot placement from the audio tape, news reports state that both burglars were SHOT IN THE BACK, indicating they were fleeing when shot.

    This situation is not looking good for the shooter, Joe Horn. In a place like San Francisco, California or Boston, Massachusetts or New York City, Joe would have been arrested and the District Attorney would have immediately filed criminal charges against him for manslaughter or worse.

    However, Joe lives in the great state of Texas. Texans elect a different breed of public official and thus have a different set of laws than most states. Knowing that this case was going to polarize the community, especially along racial and socio-economic lines, the Grand Jury was asked to review the evidence to decide if charges should be filed or not.

    Here is the ABC News story following the Grand Jury's decision.

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    If this still does not work, contact Front Sight Support.

    Surprised at the verdict?

    The only thing that kept Joe Horn from a prison yard full of the same type of people he shot was the interpretation by the Grand Jury of the law in Texas that allows use of deadly force to protect personal property. Most states do not have such a law, so don't expect to enjoy a similar outcome if you shoot two men in the back who burglarize your neighbor's house.

    Here is a question for you… After all that Joe Horn has been through over 7 months — including the legal fees, sleepless nights, potential for a criminal manslaughter conviction and prison sentence, do you think he would do it again to protect a “bag of loot?”

    Would you?

    THAT is the question you need to answer for yourself in advance or you could be in the same situation Joe Horn is in.

    A good rule of thumb is: If it is not worth killing or dying for it probably isn't worth fighting (shooting) for.

    Another good rule of thumb is: When you shoot for property or principle, it carries a VERY HIGH price tag.

    As a personal note to Joe Horn:

    I understand you, Joe, and so do all the good, law-abiding people who would have wanted to stop criminals from burglarizing their neighbor's home. I understand that if you don't stop them, then what's to prevent them from burglarizing your house tomorrow or invading the house down the street next week, raping or killing the occupants? Where does it all end if good men look the other way when they can act to stop a crime in progress?

    I don't fault you for what you did, because I understand you and I would have felt the same way. I just wish you had been to Front Sight BEFORE this happened to you because I guarantee that after taking our training and listening to our classroom lectures involving EXACTLY the issues you faced, you could have still stopped the burglars, but you certainly would not have made the mistakes that caused you seven months of sleepless nights, grief and expense.

    You have paid a very heavy price by shooting for principal and to protect property. That price is not over yet. You can expect a civil case to be filed against you by a slippery contingency attorney representing the grieving family of the criminals you shot. I know it is not fair. As you are finding out, life is not always fair, but it is always real.

    If the criminals you shot were members of any street gangs, you also must now look over your shoulder for the rest of your life for any potential retribution for killing one of their own.

    Joe, I'm very sorry you have had to endure this nightmare. I cannot do anything about what happened in the past, but I can certainly help you prepare for the future. You are welcome to contact me and I will provide you with a free, Five Day Armed Citizen Course at Front Sight. It is the least I can do to assist you.

    Sincerely,

    Dr. Ignatius Piazza
    Front Sight Founder and Director
    Gun training | Firearms Training

    P.S. Please share this report with your family and friends. If your family and friends would like to receive their own reports, our 12 page brochure, and 90 minute award winning DVD then please direct them to: Gun training | Firearms Training.

    P.P.S. If you do not yet have a gun and the mindset to handle yourself properly in any situation involving a firearm, then get a Springfield Armory XD Pistol at no charge when you take advantage of the Greatest Course, Gun, and CCW Permit Offer in the firearms training industry. You will receive training that exceeds law enforcement and military standards without any boot camp mentality or drill instructor attitudes.
    By faith Noah,being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear,prepared an ark to the saving of his house;by the which he condemned the world,and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith Heb.11:7

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