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Thread: OC or CC?

  1. #21
    OC is not not an option here in NY. I would carry concealed even if it were. Just my preference.

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  3. #22
    handgonnetoter Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by father-of-three View Post
    It should not effect your ability to conceal carry. Ohio does not have reciprocity with either Pennsylvania or Indiana, so it would be prudent to see what Ohio's laws are regarding automobile carry, etc. Just be aware of any differeing laws regarding use of force, castle dostrine, etc. Pennsylvania currently has a weak castle doctrine law, but that may change in the very near future. Pennsylvania's current law basically say that if you can retreat, you must retreat.
    Thanks for the information.

  4. #23
    handgonnetoter Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by hopnpop View Post
    Thanks to ALL for not turning this into a CC vs. OC debate! Curmudgeon said it perfectly - glad that more people are excercising their 2A rights, however they decide to carry. THAT's the mindest I like to see!

    Back OT. The OP mentioned that he CC's a lot, so it's safe to assume he's got a CPL. ...And with a CPL, one can OC into the majority of PFZ's in Michigan. Just saying that there are some places that you're not allowed to conceal, even with a CPL... but, with a CPL, one may OC. Screwy, I know...but worth knowing. There's not all THAT much legalese you need to know to be able to confidently OC. If I can retain that information, most anyone can. Plus, to cover your ass with both hands, it's recommended to carry a digital voice/audio recorder when OCing... at least in places you think you're more likely to have a LEO encounter. They've become valuable tools that have shown just how LEOs can try to violate your rights. Again, chances of this happening are becoming smaller, but still better to be prepared.

    It seems that the vast majority of LEOs don't have a problem with OC but there are always the few who may give you problems. As long as you're obeying the law, you're good-to-go. Be cool, responsible, and respectful, and know that you're not breaking the law.

    OC takes some getting used to. By and large, it goes totally unnoticed, amazingly enough. From day 1, I've been amazed at just how many people don't even notice - sometimes LEOs included. When it is noticed, it usually only causes a double-take. Rarely you'll get a comment, and even then, the majority of comments are to the positive. Best way to get used to OC is by taking baby-steps. Start with OCing to your most frequently visitied convenience store, and/or gas station. Then somewhere else that you're comfortable with. It will start feeling more regular and natural the more you do it. Just be confident and keep your situational awareness high.
    It seems as though being bold about OC tends to bother less people, weird. I think once people see you standing there just doing the things that they are doing, armed, they tend to think "Oh well, he is doing what I am doing, just has a gun too!" People are strange aren't they?

  5. Quote Originally Posted by Itstjs View Post
    Wow, learning alot here, I was a bit hesitant to ask the question, OC or CC, thought it might be a "blood bath" here. Anyways, thank you all for the input.
    What is the best way to react to an LEO encounter? If he asks for my CPL, do I reach for my wallet and give it to him, or politely ask him to retrieve my wallet for me? Id hate to get shot with some rookie thinking Im reaching for the gun.
    First... this is absolutely the most civil and well balanced OC discussion I have ever read! I hope it doesn't degrade into the slanderous mud slinging that most do .

    Second... during a police encounter - do not invite the police to do anything. Don't offer them anything. Remember, you are the LAW ABIDING citizen. You have committed no crime. This first action you might wish to take is to ask the officer if you are being detained for suspicion of committing a crime. If they say no, then ask if you are free to leave. Legally if they say no, you are not being detained for suspicion of committing a crime, then the encounter after that becomes completely voluntary.

    If you choose, or are required, to participate in the encounter, just follow the instructions of what the cop says and make no sudden movements in the area of your gun. And, to re-iterate, do not invite the officer to take any actions, do not offer the officer anything, and do not consent to any searches of your vehicle, person or possessions.

    Legally, if you are being formally detained for suspicion of committing a crime, the officer may disarm you "for officer safety" for the duration of the detention, and may frisk the outside of your clothing only for the presence of readily identifiable weapons, which they may also remove "for officer safety". Beyond that, they are violating the 4th amendment and conducting an illegal search and seizure if performed without your consent. The image you see on COPS of the officer taking everything out of the subjects pockets and laying it all out on the top of the car is a gross violation (unless the subject gives consent).

  6. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLT View Post
    First... this is absolutely the most civil and well balanced OC discussion I have ever read! I hope it doesn't degrade into the slanderous mud slinging that most do .

    Second... during a police encounter - do not invite the police to do anything. Don't offer them anything. Remember, you are the LAW ABIDING citizen. You have committed no crime. This first action you might wish to take is to ask the officer if you are being detained for suspicion of committing a crime. If they say no, then ask if you are free to leave. Legally if they say no, you are not being detained for suspicion of committing a crime, then the encounter after that becomes completely voluntary.

    If you choose, or are required, to participate in the encounter, just follow the instructions of what the cop says and make no sudden movements in the area of your gun. And, to re-iterate, do not invite the officer to take any actions, do not offer the officer anything, and do not consent to any searches of your vehicle, person or possessions.

    Legally, if you are being formally detained for suspicion of committing a crime, the officer may disarm you "for officer safety" for the duration of the detention, and may frisk the outside of your clothing only for the presence of readily identifiable weapons, which they may also remove "for officer safety". Beyond that, they are violating the 4th amendment and conducting an illegal search and seizure if performed without your consent. The image you see on COPS of the officer taking everything out of the subjects pockets and laying it all out on the top of the car is a gross violation (unless the subject gives consent).
    Agree completely with you, NavyLT, with the exception of the above statement. My understanding, from an attorney associate, is that LEO may disarm you and perform a "terry frisk" even if you are not under suspicion for committing a crime. This actually happened to me on a traffic stop while I was on the scoot. LEO disarmed me, put me up against the car, and frisked me. Never did give me a traffic ticket (this was in Black Hills during Sturgis rally and I had a patch on my back). When I returned home, I asked lawyer about it. He claimed that LEO has a right to ensure their own saftey, even during a routine stop.

    Yes? No?
    Prov. 27:3 - "Stone is heavy and sand a burden, but provocation by a fool is heavier than both"

  7. Quote Originally Posted by JJFlash View Post
    Agree completely with you, NavyLT, with the exception of the above statement. My understanding, from an attorney associate, is that LEO may disarm you and perform a "terry frisk" even if you are not under suspicion for committing a crime. This actually happened to me on a traffic stop while I was on the scoot. LEO disarmed me, put me up against the car, and frisked me. Never did give me a traffic ticket (this was in Black Hills during Sturgis rally and I had a patch on my back). When I returned home, I asked lawyer about it. He claimed that LEO has a right to ensure their own saftey, even during a routine stop.

    Yes? No?
    Correct. You were stopped because of an infraction of traffic laws. It was an official detention precipitated by a violation. I guess I should have specified in my post that "crime", maybe inappropriately, refers to the violation of a statute, code or ordinance - anything that you may receive a citation for.

    Now, if you are walking down the street, lawfully carrying your firearm in a holster, and somecall calls 911 and says there is a guy walking down the stree with a gun in a holster, and the police approach you to "investigate", the question is do they have any reason at all to believe that you are committing a crime? The answer is no (assuming open carry is legal in your state, obviously). In that case, they have no legal authority to disarm you because they have no cause to detain you to begin with because there is no reasonable indication that you have committed any violation of any statute.

  8. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLT View Post
    Correct. You were stopped because of an infraction of traffic laws. It was an official detention precipitated by a violation. I guess I should have specified in my post that crime, maybe inappropriately, refers to the violation of a statute, code or ordinance - anything that you may receive a citation for.

    Now, if you are walking down the street, lawfully carrying your firearm in a holster, and somecall calls 911 and says there is a guy walking down the stree with a gun in a holster, and the police approach you to "investigate", the question is do they have any reason at all to believe that you are committing a crime? The answer is no. In that case, they have no legal authority to disarm you because they have no cause to detain you to begin with because there is no reasonable indication that you have committed any violation of any statute.
    Sheesh...you're right, of course. My bad (sound of hand slapping forehead).
    Prov. 27:3 - "Stone is heavy and sand a burden, but provocation by a fool is heavier than both"

  9. Quote Originally Posted by JJFlash View Post
    Sheesh...you're right, of course. My bad (sound of hand slapping forehead).
    Well, actually it's a pretty common mistake that people make. A stop for a traffic infraction is considered, legally, an arrest. Anytime a police officer stops you, and you are not free to leave, you have been arrested by that officer. Technically when an officer stops you and asks you, "Do you know I pulled you over?", if you answer that question with a "confession" you have given up your 5th amendment rights. I am not saying to make a big deal about it, but, in reality that is what is happening.

    Talk about giving up the 5th amendment - there is a rural road that a lot of people use as a shortcut where I live and the speed limit on that road changes from 50 to 35 to 50 to 40. The 50 to 40 change is at the entrance to a curve with a grocery store around the curve. So I am going along with the cruise control set at 52 and just totally space-out the speed limit change to 40, come around the curve and there is Mr. Sheriff sitting at the grocery store (on the left). I slowed down as soon as I saw him, didn't even wait for him to pull out.... I just turned on my hazard blinkers and a couple yards past him is a private road to the right. I just pulled onto that road and waited. (I was in my Miata with the top down at the time).

    I immediately gave him all the paperwork and stated that I had my cruise control set and just forgot about the speed limit change. He just held up my driver's license and said, I'll check this out and be right back and let you go with a verbal warning, and that was it. About 1 year ago I got a ticket in that exact same spot!

    So, I am not advocating to always stand up for all of your rights - but when it is an officer questioning you over perfectly legal behavior - simply because they or someone else doesn't like what you are doing, then the situation changes.

  10. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLT View Post
    Well, actually it's a pretty common mistake that people make. A stop for a traffic infraction is considered, legally, an arrest. Anytime a police officer stops you, and you are not free to leave, you have been arrested by that officer. Technically when an officer stops you and asks you, "Do you know I pulled you over?", if you answer that question with a "confession" you have given up your 5th amendment rights. I am not saying to make a big deal about it, but, in reality that is what is happening.

    Talk about giving up the 5th amendment - there is a rural road that a lot of people use as a shortcut where I live and the speed limit on that road changes from 50 to 35 to 50 to 40. The 50 to 40 change is at the entrance to a curve with a grocery store around the curve. So I am going along with the cruise control set at 52 and just totally space-out the speed limit change to 40, come around the curve and there is Mr. Sheriff sitting at the grocery store (on the left). I slowed down as soon as I saw him, didn't even wait for him to pull out.... I just turned on my hazard blinkers and a couple yards past him is a private road to the right. I just pulled onto that road and waited. (I was in my Miata with the top down at the time).

    I immediately gave him all the paperwork and stated that I had my cruise control set and just forgot about the speed limit change. He just held up my driver's license and said, I'll check this out and be right back and let you go with a verbal warning, and that was it. About 1 year ago I got a ticket in that exact same spot!

    So, I am not advocating to always stand up for all of your rights - but when it is an officer questioning you over perfectly legal behavior - simply because they or someone else doesn't like what you are doing, then the situation changes.
    I got pulled over out-of-state just a few week ago, similar thing, just daydreaming and forgot about the cruise control. State LEO leans in the passenger window (wife was sitting there) and asks me if I knew how fast I was going. My reply was: "Bet you're gonna tell me". LEO was cool, cut me a real break as it was in a construction zone (no workers), and I was on my way. My wife remarked that I was somewhat of a smartass for answering that way but I schooled her on "confessing" away your 5th amendment rights.
    Prov. 27:3 - "Stone is heavy and sand a burden, but provocation by a fool is heavier than both"

  11. #30
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Oro Valley, Arizona
    Posts
    119
    While I can open carry here in Arizona, I still prefer concealed.

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