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Thread: OC or CC?

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by JJFlash View Post
    I do both. Nobody says "boo" when I open carry. Works for me. I'm starting to like OC more than CC as it seems to be less hassle. As per perceived tactical advantages/disadvantages, frankly I don't worry about it. Situational awareness is the key now matter how you carry.


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    The Most Important Thing That You Can Do In This Life, Is To Determine "WHERE" You Will "LIVE" In The Next Life.

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  3. #32
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    Both have their place and time, but if you chose to OC then you must be prepared for teh results of uninformed police officers intervention...
    "The sword dose not cause the murder, and the maker of the sword dose not bear sin" Rabbi Solomon ben Isaac 11th century
    "Don't be so open minded that your brains fall out!" Father John Corapi.

  4. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sheldon View Post
    Both have their place and time, but if you chose to OC then you must be prepared for teh results of uninformed police officers intervention...
    That's the nice part about living in Arizona, it's a non issue. All police are well informed of the long existent statute, and open carry is common place everyday procedure among a great many of our citizens. And, starting in August, any citizen 21 yrs.& older without a felony record can legally carry concealed without a permit.
    The Most Important Thing That You Can Do In This Life, Is To Determine "WHERE" You Will "LIVE" In The Next Life.

  5. #34
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    Well Then

    Wish all other states would have the laws Arizona has, although Michigan is going to be following Arizonas lead on the Immigration law, maybe theyll do the same with Concealed Carry =]
    Only two defining forces have ever offered to die for you, Jesus Christ and the American Soldier....One died for your soul; the other for your freedom.

  6. #35
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    I completely understand irrational fear is not my problem. The part that really needs to be understood is; how irrational is the fear? A person isn't necessarily a GG just because they have the stones to openly carry a firearm. Fear of just the firearm is irrational and is usually caused by unfamiliarity. Being aware that a MWAG is present is not irrational fear. Until that persons exact intentions are known, as in he conducts business and leaves, you can never be sure. I think all of us call it "situational awareness". Automatically assuming the MWAG is a GG and one of us could be a life ending mistake.

    I think the people that relocated in the restaurant were demonstrating "situational awareness". If they were unarmed I understand the choice they made. We know they had no reason to be afraid of us. Only God and I truly know what lies in my heart.

    The only reason I have the luxury of not being fearful is I'm usually armed. I know the guy wearing the firearm has a gun, if I'm CC he doesn't know I'm armed. I like the advantage. That is why the so called "gun free zones" are so dangerous. I avoid them as much as I can.

    Thanks for the thoughtful feedback, we all need to think about this stuff. Think before you expose your firearm, you may actually be placing yourself at greater risk.

    Just one mans opinion, take it for what it's worth, just an opinion.

  7. #36
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    Few things I'd like to address here... First, like NAVY LT said, thanks again to all for keeping this civilized and friendly. Secondly, Navy_LT, I like the way you think - seems like YOU post MY thoughts! I think you and I are on the same page.

    Next, SHELDON, as per uninformed police - the OC "movement" in Michigan has gotten so much publicity now that there are a very few officers who are still ill-informed. That situation is easily dealt with a few different ways, as long as your composure is maintained. If you address the situation with anger and/or an attitude, things could go downhill. Again, back to being professional. Keep your cool, be courteous, and you'll be fine. If dealing with an uninformed LEO, request a supervisor or a state police unit. Either one can and most likely will clarify the situation. Our state police force is up to par on OC laws. The only hitch you still might run into even with a state LEO is if you're OCing in a PFZ. I think some are still a little unclear as to those circumstances.

    On the issue of detainment... this opens the can of worms a bit. Again, at opencarry.org, there is information there that specifically addresses this situation. If an officer stops you on the sidewalk and starts asking questions, asks for your ID, etc, first ask "Am I being detained?" The answer will be "No", which means that you're not obligated to even speak to him - you can simply and legally walk away. Some might say that you "have to" talk to them - that is incorrect. That's their ego talking. If he answers yes that you're being detained, ask "Under suspicion of what crime am I being detained?" You cannot be legally detained without PC (probable cause) or RAS (reasonably articulated suspicion). If neither exists, it's an illegal stop. RAS means that the officer has reason to believe you've commited a crime, are in the process of committing a crime, or that there's reason to believe you're about to commit a crime. Openly carrying a pistol does not qualify as PC or RAS on its own, as it's a legal activity. If, say, there was a call of shots fired just before a LEO sees you OCing, that may be legitimate. But without additional circumstances, there's no PC or RAS. A person is not obligated to provide ID simply for carrying. Of course the decision is yours whether to chose not to speak with him or pacify him. Be forewarned, tho, that speaking to him and answering his questions may not be in your best interest. I've always been one to be polite and cooperative with LEOs but if stopped and questioned for carrying, I probably would keep my mouth shut. Time and time again, it's proven to be the best course of action. You may ask "Is my carrying a pistol the reason why you're stopping me/questioning me?" Again, if the answer is yes, you're not obligated to speak to him, to provide your name, your ID, your itinerary, etc. You may say "Carrying a pistol is a legal activity and therefore I don't care to discuss my personal business with you" or something to that effect, and walk away. Do remember, tho, that if you're "openly carrying" while ina vehicle, you still MUST DISCLOSE that you're carrying, just as if it were concealed. Cover your arse. Again, for further, accurate information, I refer you to opencarry.org. Any and all answers are there. Lastly, on this note, if you can keep the situation from escalating to the officer disarming you, I recommend doing so. LEOs aren't familiar with many guns and I've seen an LEO disarm a person, and while handling the person's loaded firearm, trying to figure out how to clear it (different safety features and controls), poor gun handling practice was obvious as I watched the muzzle sweep the person being questioned. Scary situation.

    Alright, I think that about covers it. Navy_LT's post(s) spelled out a lot, and did so accurately.
    Don't do anything you wouldn't want to explain to the paramedics...

  8. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by SSBN620Gold View Post
    I completely understand irrational fear is not my problem. The part that really needs to be understood is; how irrational is the fear? A person isn't necessarily a GG just because they have the stones to openly carry a firearm. Fear of just the firearm is irrational and is usually caused by unfamiliarity. Being aware that a MWAG is present is not irrational fear. Until that persons exact intentions are known, as in he conducts business and leaves, you can never be sure. I think all of us call it "situational awareness". Automatically assuming the MWAG is a GG and one of us could be a life ending mistake.

    I think the people that relocated in the restaurant were demonstrating "situational awareness". If they were unarmed I understand the choice they made. We know they had no reason to be afraid of us. Only God and I truly know what lies in my heart.

    The only reason I have the luxury of not being fearful is I'm usually armed. I know the guy wearing the firearm has a gun, if I'm CC he doesn't know I'm armed. I like the advantage. That is why the so called "gun free zones" are so dangerous. I avoid them as much as I can.

    Thanks for the thoughtful feedback, we all need to think about this stuff. Think before you expose your firearm, you may actually be placing yourself at greater risk.

    Just one mans opinion, take it for what it's worth, just an opinion.
    I recognize that we don't see eye to eye on OC vs. CC but I like your presentation, good points. Again, we're back to OC being a visual deterrent and CC having the element of surprise. Both have pluses and minuses. As for the people at the restaurant relocating, I don't see much point in it. It's not like a bullet isn't going to reach the other side of the room. But I get that they felt more comfortable putting some distance between them and the MWAG. Whatever makes 'em feel more comfortable.

    You're also right in pointing out that just because a gun is OC'd it doesn't necessarily mean that the person carrying is a GG.... but I've never heard of a BG OCing his piece. At least at this point in time, in this state, 98.9% of the time a gun is OC'd, it's carried by a GG. If OC becomes more commonplace, I think it more likely that a BG would be so bold as to OC his gun. But for now, I'm pretty confident that OC = GG. I won't let myself ever believe that there are never exceptions to the norm, tho. Also, just a note, that many who OC often have a concealed BUG (back-up gun), so it's almost a "best of both worlds" situation.

    I agree with your feelings on PFZ's. That, to me, is another instance where OC is beneficial. If you have a CPL, you can OC in most PFZ's. I know you wouldn't like to OC vs. CC, but in those PFZ's, if you're like me, you'd rather OC than go unarmed. Granted, OC in a PFZ does tend to get a little more attention, just because the vast majority of people know they're in a PFZ and to them, a PFZ is just that - a pistol-free-zone. Only a small fraction of the general public know that a PFZ isn't necessarily pistol-free. There are exemptions to those who have a CPL and law enforecement. Even with CPL you can't conceal there, but may OC. Weird, I know. Don't try and find the logic there, you'll go nuts.
    Don't do anything you wouldn't want to explain to the paramedics...

  9. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ringo View Post
    That's the nice part about living in Arizona, it's a non issue. All police are well informed of the long existent statute, and open carry is common place everyday procedure among a great many of our citizens. And, starting in August, any citizen 21 yrs.& older without a felony record can legally carry concealed without a permit.
    Yeah that is what is way cool about AZ, been there multiple times and when I wear the HK in my desert shoulder rig into a store the guy next to me with the tattoo gets the stare, no one notices you are armed... However this guys as am I in Michigan and some of the police agency's here are uninformed, or their commanders anti, case in point just two weeks ago we had a OC incident in a small town, guy (clean shaven army on leave ) was on his motorcycle OC, got stopped and detained for over 2 hours "while they checked to see if his gun was stolen or not".
    "The sword dose not cause the murder, and the maker of the sword dose not bear sin" Rabbi Solomon ben Isaac 11th century
    "Don't be so open minded that your brains fall out!" Father John Corapi.

  10. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sheldon View Post
    Yeah that is what is way cool about AZ, been there multiple times and when I wear the HK in my desert shoulder rig into a store the guy next to me with the tattoo gets the stare, no one notices you are armed... However this guys as am I in Michigan and some of the police agency's here are uninformed, or their commanders anti, case in point just two weeks ago we had a OC incident in a small town, guy (clean shaven army on leave ) was on his motorcycle OC, got stopped and detained for over 2 hours "while they checked to see if his gun was stolen or not".
    You've got to get in touch with Ted Nugent.
    The Most Important Thing That You Can Do In This Life, Is To Determine "WHERE" You Will "LIVE" In The Next Life.

  11. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by mappow View Post
    "Open carry may discourage an aggressor and a situation may not arise because you would be perceived as a deterrent to an evil action." NMHUNTER

    I'm completely for the DETERRENT factor. Just wish our State was. I'm sure there is possible scenarios concerning being targeted because you OC. But I also think most BG's don't think that far ahead. Most crime is a chance opportunity, not a well thought out plan. I would think that if most BG's see someone OC. They would think he/she might be an LEO and avoid any confrontation. PLUS I would find it much more comfortable if I could OC verses CC. (after all it is all about my comfort)

    "The smallest minority on earth is the individual. Those who deny individual rights cannot claim to be defenders of minorities." --author and philosopher Ayn Rand (1905-1982)
    You have the same problem I have with CC. It's uncomfortable to me. I hear about the holsters that are so nice you can't tell you're wearing one, etc. Listen if I stick something inside my waistband, it changes the sizing of my pants...period. I don't like that. I want to place a holster where it supposed to be...on the belt!

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