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Thread: OC or CC?

  1. Quote Originally Posted by SSBN620Gold View Post
    I completely understand irrational fear is not my problem. The part that really needs to be understood is; how irrational is the fear? A person isn't necessarily a GG just because they have the stones to openly carry a firearm. Fear of just the firearm is irrational and is usually caused by unfamiliarity. Being aware that a MWAG is present is not irrational fear. Until that persons exact intentions are known, as in he conducts business and leaves, you can never be sure. I think all of us call it "situational awareness". Automatically assuming the MWAG is a GG and one of us could be a life ending mistake.

    I think the people that relocated in the restaurant were demonstrating "situational awareness". If they were unarmed I understand the choice they made. We know they had no reason to be afraid of us. Only God and I truly know what lies in my heart.

    The only reason I have the luxury of not being fearful is I'm usually armed. I know the guy wearing the firearm has a gun, if I'm CC he doesn't know I'm armed. I like the advantage. That is why the so called "gun free zones" are so dangerous. I avoid them as much as I can.

    Thanks for the thoughtful feedback, we all need to think about this stuff. Think before you expose your firearm, you may actually be placing yourself at greater risk.

    Just one mans opinion, take it for what it's worth, just an opinion.
    I am curious as to this idea of paying extra attention to a person who is openly carrying a firearm in a holster. How does the visible firearm make that person any more dangerous than the guy next to him who isn't open carrying a firearm? Do you have any idea what the other guy is hiding? It would seem to me that the person open carrying the firearm would be more likely (not guaranteed, but more likely) to be a law abiding citizen because I wouldn't think it would be a good idea for a criminal to openly carry a gun.

    My humble opinion is that this idea of being more careful around a person openly carrying a gun is brought about by the propaganda that the anti-gun groups push so hard that there is evil or danger associated with the firearm itself rather than the person behind the gun. I think we should watch all person's BEHAVIOR equally and notice if they are ACTING in a way that is suspicious rather than paying attention to what is on their belt.

    BTW.... ex- SSBN740Blue here :-)

  2.   
  3. Quote Originally Posted by NavyLT View Post
    I am curious as to this idea of paying extra attention to a person who is openly carrying a firearm in a holster. How does the visible firearm make that person any more dangerous than the guy next to him who isn't open carrying a firearm? Do you have any idea what the other guy is hiding? It would seem to me that the person open carrying the firearm would be more likely (not guaranteed, but more likely) to be a law abiding citizen because I wouldn't think it would be a good idea for a criminal to openly carry a gun.

    My humble opinion is that this idea of being more careful around a person openly carrying a gun is brought about by the propaganda that the anti-gun groups push so hard that there is evil or danger associated with the firearm itself rather than the person behind the gun. I think we should watch all person's BEHAVIOR equally and notice if they are ACTING in a way that is suspicious rather than paying attention to what is on their belt.

    BTW.... ex- SSBN740Blue here :-)
    Yup! and Duh!
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  4. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLT View Post
    If you are OC and you have been spotted by the BG (if he has had to look the place over) unless he is stupid he will simply go down the street to a place where there aren't visibly armed citizens present or wait a few minutes for the armed citizen to leave. You dedicated CC people can argue that point until the cows come home but facts are criminals don't want to get caught or shot - and messing with an armed citizen greatly increases the chance of both. There has never been anyone yet who has been able to provide a real life example of a regular Joe Citizen person open carrying getting shot first. The only examples have been uniformed guards or police officers.
    You just proved my point, although there have been no incidents of a BG going into a place to do evil with an OC in presence, they do look the place over as evidenced by your example, so if they are determined to hit that place you will be first on their list....
    "The sword dose not cause the murder, and the maker of the sword dose not bear sin" Rabbi Solomon ben Isaac 11th century
    "Don't be so open minded that your brains fall out!" Father John Corapi.

  5. #54
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    Dare I say to Sheldon and Navy_LT that you both make valid points? I think that it's more likely that a criminal scouting a place would choose to look elsewhere upon seeing one or more customers visibly armed, or wait until the armed patrons leave the establishment. There would be a chance that, with determination, he would decide to go ahead with his assault and in that case, yes, a person visibly armed would be a primary target. In that situation, we could only hope that the OCer's situational awareness and reaction time are peaked. That's a risk that OCers take. Is it a gamble? Perhaps, but I don't feel it to be much of one. I think the odds are best that the criminal would seek another venue, be it place or time. Statistically, criminals do choose easier, more vulnerable, safer victims. I think it a generally safe assumption that a person carrying a pistol knows how to use it and is prepared to. That doesn't make for a very easy, safe victim. Also, if there's more than one person/customer who visibly armed, the criminal would definitely choose another place and/or time. Going ahead with his plans in that case would almost be suicide.

    Side note: In regards to CC vs OC, I've always had another thought on the matter... I think that an (apparently) unarmed person is more likely to be targeted as a victim than a visibly armed person. If the unarmed person is actually concealing and only appears to be unarmed, he'll still be targeted, which would likely result in use of lethal force... whereas the visibly armed person wouldn't have been targeted, and therefore, wouldn't be put into the position of using it. I say again, there's no certainty that a person OCing wouldn't be targeted, I'm only speaking from logic and liklihood. I don't think any of us want to have to use deadly force, but we're prepared to if need be. Long story short, I think that OC lessens the chance of having to USE it. Just something to think about.

    And that was a good point made about how a person fears someone who's openly carrying but not someone who might be concealing. I suppose it's a crap-shoot. They may feel uncomfortable being around someone visibly armed, but not being around someone who doesn't SEEM to be armed. Where the person who doesn't SEEM armed might or might not be, the chances are that they're not armed. Either way, they're not "parading" their gun around... Remember, the anti's promote the notions that those who OC are "unstable", "have something to prove", "are endangering everyone around them", etc. Of course, some people are going to adhere to that way of thinking, however wrong and inaccurate it may be, and naturally have feelings of fear and/or distrust toward and around OCers. Anyway....
    Don't do anything you wouldn't want to explain to the paramedics...

  6. Quote Originally Posted by hopnpop View Post
    Remember, the anti's promote the notions that those who OC are "unstable", "have something to prove", "are endangering everyone around them", etc. Of course, some people are going to adhere to that way of thinking, however wrong and inaccurate it may be, and naturally have feelings of fear and/or distrust toward and around OCers. Anyway....
    And how are we, the sane, rational law abiding citizens going to change that idea that the anti-gun groups have been forcing upon the public since the 1960's if we hide our guns away like they are something evil to be feared? Doesn't the public have to actually see the gun being carried by "normal" people in "normal" everyday life to change their preconceived notions? Does concealed carry help to change that image when the public doesn't know there is a gun present?

    There are advantages and disadvantages to both methods of carry. And there are times when I personally feel CC is more advantageous and will conceal my gun at those times - but not very often.

  7. #56
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    Hello LT, great to run into another bubble head.

    Both LT and HOP make very valid points. The fact that both of you have considerable experience OC'ing adds credibility to your positions. I also think if you try to predict the actions of a criminal you will probably lose your mind.

    I went into the Farmington Hills Police Department to discuss OC in my city. I wanted to get a felling for how OC would be handled by a FH LEO. I was not able to get an answer from the LT on duty. He did acknowledge they know it is legal. He also made the statement "if you OC someone will try to take the gun from you"

    Hypothetical: How would you handle an unarmed person that attempts to take your gun? What is legal?

  8. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by SSBN620Gold View Post
    Hello LT, great to run into another bubble head.

    Both LT and HOP make very valid points. The fact that both of you have considerable experience OC'ing adds credibility to your positions. I also think if you try to predict the actions of a criminal you will probably lose your mind.

    I went into the Farmington Hills Police Department to discuss OC in my city. I wanted to get a felling for how OC would be handled by a FH LEO. I was not able to get an answer from the LT on duty. He did acknowledge they know it is legal. He also made the statement "if you OC someone will try to take the gun from you"


    Hypothetical: How would you handle an unarmed person that attempts to take your gun? What is legal?

    IANAL, but I will tell you that any attempt to grab my firearm will be immediately treated the same as an armed attempt on my life. I would feel justified in using every means at my disposal at stopping said threat.

    Every means.

  9. #58
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    OC or CC the key here is training... Been OC and CC since most of you were playing with cap guns, and have spent a heap of $$$$$ with different experts and anyone you let get close enough to disarm you in OC you are dead unless you have drilled trained and practiced in what to do until it becomes reflexive.

    Bravado sounds grand but bottom line here is never let anyone you do not know or are in doubt of inside your 21' safety radius, if they have a knife, even then it may be too late unless you are on top of things and know what to do.
    Yes if a BG were to come into a store where several people were OC it would be suicide to start a confrontation, but if there is only one, and unless you are with a group of like minded here in MI you will not very likely run into that scenario, (now AZ is another story).

    Not being a target is more than OC in a street full of thugs, (which you should avoid in the first place but sometimes cannot), it has to do with (atti)tude, how you carry yourself, how you walk, how you dress, how you view and are aware of your surroundings, when things are beyond your control and you end up in someplace you should not really be in short real good situational awareness and a don't mess with me look.....

    True story.... about 25 years ago in a local bar, two BG's walk in one with a 12 GA the other with a hunting riffle, guy with 12 GA fires round into ceiling and announces "this is a hold up everyone put your wallets and purses on the tables" and he motions the barkeep to open the till.....
    About that time all he hears is the deafening sound of "click, clickety, clack, ckick times about 30" almost every one in the bar was CC (remember the judged by 12 rather than be carried by 6 rule).... the guy turned pale lowered his weapon as did his buddy, and said "OH **** I THINK WE WILL LEAVE NOW", and did post haste.....
    "The sword dose not cause the murder, and the maker of the sword dose not bear sin" Rabbi Solomon ben Isaac 11th century
    "Don't be so open minded that your brains fall out!" Father John Corapi.

  10. #59
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    It's all a matter of common sense.
    Americas Epitaph
    "Since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, He gave them up to a depraved mind, to do what should not be done"

  11. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by SSBN620Gold View Post
    Hello LT, great to run into another bubble head.

    I was not able to get an answer from the LT on duty. He did acknowledge they know it is legal. He also made the statement "if you OC someone will try to take the gun from you"

    Hypothetical: How would you handle an unarmed person that attempts to take your gun? What is legal?
    Don't put 100% stock into whatever answer you get. Remember, you're asking one person who can't speak for every iindividual in the department. He acknowledged that it's legal. Duh. So unless they plan on arresting or harassing for a legal activity, which is in fact ILLEGAL, you're fine. ...And how many times do we have to hear this bullsh*t about "if you OC someone will take your gun from you"? Your chances of winning the lottery are comparable to the chances of your gun being taken from you... unless you have squat for situational awareness and allow it to happen. In fact, I think your chances of being struck by lightning may be better. Do all the research you want and you'll realize that that's a bogus statement. There are things that help in gun-grab prevention... situational awareness being first and foemost; a decent retention holster is a good aid; and simply, USE YOUR HEAD. If someone's acting suspiciously, watch 'em. Know your surroundings. Check your "6" (o'clock) now and then.

    When I OC, I carry in a Serpa Level II retention holster. That makes a gun grab much more difficult. Also, for additional security, I sometimes hook my thumb in my pocket, which puts my forearm right up against the gun, making it even more difficult. If you've got your arm in the way AND a decent retention holster, and have any SA (situational awareness), a gun grab would be virtually impossible. Think of realistic scenarios and create plans that would be effective. The whole "someone will take your gun from you" is utter nonsense. If you're carrying in an unsafe manner, pay no attention to your surroundings, or the people therein, and your head's in la-la land, then it would be possible for some twit to take his chances at taking it from you. Simply put, if your head's not up your rear, you're good to go.

    LASTLY - handling an unarmed person who tries to grab your gun? That person should find himself on the ground looking at the muzzle of your pistol. You have to imagine that (he) has the worst intentions. You have to maintain the mindset that if someone tries taking your gun, they plan on using it on you (and perhaps others). Retain your weapon at any and all cost. The action of taking your gun from you is an act of violence, and an illegal one. You're justified in using whatever force NECESSARY to STOP THE THREAT. This scenario likely would end without you firing a shot. Like I said, think of how you would handle a situation like this, regardless of how unlikely it might be. This is one of those highly unlikely worst-case scenarios.
    Don't do anything you wouldn't want to explain to the paramedics...

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