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  1. when i tookmy utah ccw class i was told you should have less-than-lethal options so i would have used the pepper spray.

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  3. #12

    Finding answers to complicated questions

    Wow that was a shocking video what a great discussion question. When i first applied to get my CCW permit i was 21 i remember my instructor saying something to the effect that i had to make a big decision based on the parameters of the law; when would i justify using my concealed firearm. It was the first time it really hit me and i realized deep down that i would presumably have to use my gun. luckily i have not been in a situation to do such yet but since then, everywhere i go i think about these kinds of situations and what i would do.

    Utah law states that a person is permitted to use deadly force when that person reasonably beleives that the use of deadly force is to prevent serious bodily harm or death. In this case i beleive i would have no problem convincing 12 of my peers that this guy was using deadly force and i would be able to rationalize even an attack on my person.

    in this case i would asses my target environment and present my gun and use a loud voice to command his attention. hoping of course that he would flee the scene. if he advanced toward me then in that case i would definately fire on him.

    there are several things that people that come thru my classes don't realize. i am asked these types of questions several times during each session. i will generally ask severall followup questions to help people realize that there is more to a situation than the law alone:

    a) there is a difference between what's legal and what is wise.
    b) who is with me? family friends dependants? these presences will definately change my response
    c) what is behind, in front of, and to the sides of the agressor?

    it is so great that when we see these situations these questions are going thru our heads this will allow us who have chosen to carry to be able to inteligently, effectively, and lawfully handle the worst of situations.

  4. #13
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    I think we have to keep in mind what transpired here:

    The victim had NO options! S U C K E R P U N C H E D! He was out of the fight the instant it started. If you place yourself in the shoes of the victim, you're 'dependent on the kindness of strangers'.

    That leaves our "Good Samaritans." I believe an armed response to what was happening to this guy was perfectly in order.
    Last edited by Ektarr; 01-30-2008 at 07:52 PM.
    NRA Life; GOA Life; CCRKBA Life; Trustee, NJCSD; F&AM: 32 & KT
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  5. #14
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    It looks like the guy on the cell phone contributed to the beat down. When the lady got up in his face he should have stepped outside. It appears that he got into it with the lady, then the big guy got into it with him. The body language of the big guy clearly showed that he was about to take a swing. Being that I would have been armed and in a pizza joint, I would have made an attempt to get out of the restaurant. If they persisted in preventing my exit and took a swing at me, then I would give them a verbal warning to back off. As a last resort I would have shot the guy after taking the initial hit.


    gf
    "A few well placed shots with a .22LR is a lot better than a bunch of solid misses with a .44 mag!" Glock Armorer, NRA Chief RSO, Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun, Muzzleloading Rifle, Muzzleloading Shotgun, and Home Firearm Safety Training Counselor

  6. Two words, situational awareness.

    I am some what more prone to this due to my recent experiences here in Iraq however it behooves us to remain alert at all times. He was on his cell and we have no idea what he said that may have precipitated the event. I am not willing to go so far as to say he was asking for it but he could have offered an off color remark to whoever he was on the phone with. That being said once the situation got out of control with the woman he should have been in a heightened state of alert and never given the other guy a chance to sucker punch him. He should have seen that coming a mile away. At that point once the verbal altercation with the woman had ended he had to make a choice the classic fight or flight repsonse was definatly in order. Since he chose to remain we can infer he was prepared to fight it would appear he was not prepared to do either but he should have been.

    Call me paranoid, call it PTSD or what ever you want but whenever I am in a unfamiliar crowded social situation I am always evaluating everyone near me. I am not going to let anyone slip under my radar if I can help it. If I decern a possible confrontation I will make the conscious decision whether or not I want to risk being in a fight. If I stay you can bet your boots I am prepared to fight.
    ["Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote!"
    - Ben Franklin
    FONT]

  7. #16
    I'm the kind of guy that would say something directly to the woman, rather than snide comments behind her back. "Hey lady, you just passed everyone standing in line. Would you mind please waiting like the rest of us?" If then, in walks boyfriend, with a bone to pick, I step back as much as I can to diffuse things. Last option would then be off the table.

    Some other guy makes a comment? You bet I'd have SAID something first. Warn the guy with 9-1-1 on the line.
    Victory rewards not the army that fires the most rounds, but who is the more accurate shot. ---Unknown

  8. #17
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    The victim was obviously a "sheep"..totaly unaware of what was going to happen and did not take any actions to prevent it..this is what sheep do.

    All of us here would have not done what the victim did, we would have taken some kind of action against it.
    DrLewall
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    www.kiltsrock.com
    "A gun unloaded and cocked aint good for nuttin!"--Rooster Cogburn

  9. #18
    I truly do not know what I would have done in this situation. In TN the law does allow deadly force in a life threatening situation of another. I suppose I would have tried to distance myself, present my firearm, and try to deescalate the situation. However, that puts me in a dangerous position. The main thing I want to point out , you do not want to get into a fist fight while armed. If you do, you basically have lost control of your firearm.
    Last edited by DrDavidM; 01-31-2008 at 09:04 AM.
    David

    The only person available to protect you 24 hours a day is you.

  10. #19

    options

    Quote Originally Posted by chekisty View Post
    when i tookmy utah ccw class i was told you should have less-than-lethal options so i would have used the pepper spray.

    I have been thinking lately about having with me a stun gun along with my firearm.
    By faith Noah,being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear,prepared an ark to the saving of his house;by the which he condemned the world,and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith Heb.11:7

  11. #20
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    Great comments guy! First off I think if the guy on the phone was one of us it probably would have played out a lot different. I think its safe to say when the woman got up in our face (or before that) we would have been looking for an exit, creating space, calling 911, or all of thee.

    So heres what went through my head when I saw this. Like many of you said we have no idea what was said by the guy on the phone. I think that is the number one factor that would decide what Id did. If it was just a comment about some woman causing a scene and cutting in line Id be more willing to step in. If I felt what he said purposely escalated the situation Id most likely stay out of the way. After the first punch it looks like the guy actually tried to head for the exit but the woman goes that way also. Not sure if she actually blocks him from getting out but the boyfriend does grab phone guy and pull him back into the fight. I want to say at that point Id say something get someone calling 911 and see if anyone looks like they are going to help. Hoping that now that boyfriend knows police are on the way hell take off. If not then its a hard call drawing and/or shooting someone unarmed, but pummeling someone, maybe risky. I want to say at that point Id draw and do what was right but its really hard to say.

    But like everyone says this is a hard one to call. Anytime you decided to step in and help another you take a big chance financially and with YOUR freedom. On the other hand its hard to set back and watch some scum bag pummel someone just because.

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