What if you saw a Law Enforcement Officer in Trouble? - Page 28
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Thread: What if you saw a Law Enforcement Officer in Trouble?

  1. #271
    Good Morning

    And this topic comes around again. I was verbally beat up on this topic in the past in this forum.

    As I continue close to my 50th year in public service and as a state and NRA certified instructor I address this topic in my ccw classes.

    My spin is that a licensed ccw permit holder is authorized to use that amount of force necessary in a self defense situation. Leave this comment of mine out of the scenario if you want.

    A permit holder observes a law enforcement officer in a struggle, the officer is yelling for help, we (the observers of this struggle) do not know if the officer was able to push the panic button on his/her radio and we do not even know if the police dispatcher knows about the struggle or even the location of the officer.

    In the year 2012 I recommend to the class that they call 911, tell the dispatcher what is going on. The dispatcher will make the caller aware of other police units are en route or not and if so the approximate time of arrival. Meanwhile the struggle is getting worse and it looks like the bad guy is going to be successful in obtaining the officers pistol.

    I suggest to my classes that it could be appropriate to tell the 911 dispatcher that they are going to help the officer and describe what they are wearing so that any responding police units know who the good ccw holder is that is helping the officer.

    Whatever the amount of the use of force used by the ccw holder is a virtual unknown. None of us sworn or non sworn while acting in a civilian capacity have faced this.

    If the bad guy kills the officer with his/her own firearm don't be surprised if the bad guy starts shooting at any witnesses who may be able to identify him.

    This is a very complicated topic, in my humble opinion there is never a never and never an always, the answer (until we are faced with this actual scenario) is without a doubt a definite maybe.

    Thanks for reading my comments
    Pat Olvey, Cincinnati, Ohio
    Hamilton County
    email [email protected]

  2.   
  3. #272
    My response would probably be to help the officer if nothing else to call 911 while blowing the horn to distract the guy/girl hoping that'd give the officer the second chance they needed. All your suggestions were good in here, including the panic button which I never knew existed, while staying as safe as possible so I don't make the situation even more complicated. I would shoot if I believed it necessary to save a valuable life. I have a great deal of respect for LEO even if I have a difference of opinion over my speed and seatbelt use. LOL. Thank you for such an insightful thread.

  4. #273
    Good Morning

    And this topic comes around again. I was verbally beat up on this topic in the past in this forum.

    As I continue close to my 50th year in public service and as a state and NRA certified instructor I address this topic in my ccw classes.

    My spin is that a licensed ccw permit holder is authorized to use that amount of force necessary in a self defense situation. Leave this comment of mine out of the scenario if you want.

    A permit holder observes a law enforcement officer in a struggle, the officer is yelling for help, we (the observers of this struggle) do not know if the officer was able to push the panic button on his/her radio and we do not even know if the police dispatcher knows about the struggle or even the location of the officer.

    In the year 2012 I recommend to the class that they call 911, tell the dispatcher what is going on. The dispatcher will make the caller aware of other police units are en route or not and if so the approximate time of arrival. Meanwhile the struggle is getting worse and it looks like the bad guy is going to be successful in obtaining the officers pistol.

    I suggest to my classes that it could be appropriate to tell the 911 dispatcher that they are going to help the officer and describe what they are wearing so that any responding police units know who the good ccw holder is that is helping the officer.

    Whatever the amount of the use of force used by the ccw holder is a virtual unknown. None of us sworn or non sworn while acting in a civilian capacity have faced this.

    If the bad guy kills the officer with his/her own firearm don't be surprised if the bad guy starts shooting at any witnesses who may be able to identify him.

    This is a very complicated topic, in my humble opinion there is never a never and never an always, the answer (until we are faced with this actual scenario) is without a doubt a definite maybe.

    Thanks for reading my comments
    Pat Olvey, Cincinnati, Ohio
    Hamilton County
    email [email protected]

  5. #274
    very well said sir, but did you need to post it twice?

  6. Amen brother and God Bless

  7. #276
    Um, finger twitch? I've done it more than once myself.

  8. #277
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Colorado / Colorado
    Posts
    246
    I'll agree with Pat. It's a very complicated topic. On one side, in a bad situation, I would want a citizen to assist me, whether I could verbalize that, or not. My radio does NOT have a panic button (they're too old for that). I may/may not be able to call in a distress call. Then what? I think from that point, I would testify in favor of the citizen and hope for the best for him/her.
    As a citizen, I would be compelled to act under Colorado law IF REQUESTED, however if the officer is not able to verbalize this, or already incapacitated, I might be inclined to intervene and hope the officer backs me up, as above.
    CRS 16-3-202. Assisting peace officer - arrest - furnishing information - immunity.
    It's a hairy situation, at best, but realistically a very nasty predicament. I might call it a 'lesser of the evils' case, or assume the officer has requested assistance.
    18-1-702. Choice of evils.
    From a technical aspect, I'd be worried that the bullet might miss the attacker and hit the officer accidentally (assuming the officer has been grounded and there is a lot of rolling around on the ground). Moving targets are hard to get a bead on. What if the attacker has a partner(s)? There's another complication, too. What if there is a gang attack on a single officer? He won't stand a chance.
    Colorado law also allows the defense of self AND/OR third party, if that third party is in jeopardy of death. Each state has a different set of laws, and Ohio seems to be pretty much against a citizen, even in this situation.
    CRS 18-1-704. Use of physical force in defense of a person.
    Anything I say here is NOT LEGAL ADVICE, but merely discussion. I'm not an attorney.
    Pat has a lot of very valid points. For everyone, I would suggest to ask an attorney for advice, as Pat seems to have done. Pat, you are LEO, I'm assuming? To everyone else, I might also sometime ask a Police Officer/Deputy about his/her opinions, and where to go for clarification. The State of Florida has (or used to have) a plain-language flier describing what a CCW can/cannot and should/should not do with a CCW (CHL, etc). Ideally, all 50 states should have a flier like this, including this topic. Do you agree, Pat? Do you have any other suggestions or "words of wisdom" for regular citizens?

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