Why is .45 the new 9mm? - Page 4
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Thread: Why is .45 the new 9mm?

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jay View Post
    In technical terms, the recoil caused by the gun exactly balances the forward momentum of the projectile, according to Newton's third law.
    Which in non-technical terms is exactly why it doesn't knock you on your ass like hp-hobo suggests - the weapon absorbs the energy in the form of felt recoil.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jay View Post
    Speak for yourself
    I do. I also think for myself and try to unerstand what I read. You might consider trying that "your"self sometime.

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  3. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by BrianRay View Post
    Comes back to power vs capacity. 45 gives you that warm fuzzy feeling that comes from carrying 230 gr JHP rounds, even though you may only have a single stack of 8. ... .
    I think that's probably the most accurate answer to the original subject of this thread -- warm fuzzies. Both cartridges are more than capable of doing the job for which they're intended. Both are capable of more accuracy than 99.9% of the people shooting them are capable of using, certainly more accuracy than a person in a self-defense scenario with its accompanying adrenalin overload is going to be capable of utilizing. Hydrostatic shock at handgun velocities is pretty much a non-issue so it boils down to wound channel size, penetration, and the fit of the gun to the hand of the shooter.

    All else being equal, wound channel size goes to the .45ACP. But all is not equal. Penetration goes to the 9mm; the .45ACP is one of the easier rounds for ballistic vests to stop. OTOH, assuming the use of a ballistic vest that stops both rounds, the blunt trauma, bruise, if any from the .45 will be larger because of the greater momentum.

    I like the .45ACP because it's accurate and the guns that I have that are chambered for it are single-action, thin and easy to carry, and the cartridge is easy to reload with inexpensive cast bullets. I also like the 9mm because it, also, is accurate and available in a wide variety of handguns. My JMB-designed Hi-Power is every bit as accurate as its fellow single-action JMB-designed 1911 brother. At this time, factory 9mm ammo is quite a bit less expensive than .45ACP so practice is easy. My DAO Steyr 9S in 9mm is also accurate, lightweight, and a good instinctive-pointing handgun. I don't feel inadequately armed with any of the guns I have in either caliber.

    I think, ultimately, the reason for the resurging popularity of the .45ACP is due more to the same reason that wide lapels, wide or narrow ties, or platform shoes go in and out of style. Whim, fad, and fashion have more to do with it than any practical considerations.

  4. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by brolin1911a1 View Post
    Whim, fad, and fashion have more to do with it than any practical considerations.
    I'll go along with that! That's kinda what I was alluding to with the groupthink, herd mentality comment earlier.

  5. #34
    Look at this:

    LiveLeak.com - Shot in the Chest

    Near contact 12 gauge hit in center of chest.

    No Hollywood blasted through the air.

    It even took a few seconds for him to bleed down enough to stop.

    Sorry, the "blown off his feet" Myth is totally wrong.

    -Doc

  6. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by S&W645 View Post
    PMC gives lousy info. Even though I use their 230gr FMJ .45 ACP for target ammo.

    How about comparing ammo that I have. Hornady .45ACP +P 200 gr XTP vs .45ACP 185 gr FTX vs 9mm 115 gr FTX or XTP where they publish the ft/lb at all tested distances?

    Test Barrel (5") Velocity (fps) / Energy (ft-lbs)
    .45ACP+P 200gr XTP
    Muzzle 50 100
    1055/494 982/428 925/380
    = 87.6% of velocity at 100yds

    .45ACP 185gr FTX
    Muzzle 50 100
    1000/411 936/360 883/321
    = 88% of velocity at 100yds

    Test Barrel (4") Velocity (fps) / Energy (ft-lbs)
    9mm 115 gr FTX
    Muzzle 50 100
    1140/332 1030/271 954/232
    = 83.6% of velocity at 100yds

    9mm 115gr XTP
    Muzzle 50 100
    1155/341 1047/280 971/241
    = 84.0% of velocity at 100yds



    Yes, I got the velocity mixed up with the force. :( Speed drop is greater in 9 mm in the same type bullet. Force of the .45ACP +P XTP is greater at 100yds than either 9 mm is at the barrel. Force of the .45 FTX is almost the same at 100yds as either 9mm at the barrels.

    The truth about handgun knockdown power
    And in the link for the article, force of the 9mm = 1 lb dropped 6 ft while the .45 was = 1 lb dropped from 11.4 ft. Or nearly double.
    This statement in red may not be correct. This is not directed at this poster so don't take it personally. The OP of that info may be incorrect.

    Energy (E) is 1/2 * Mass * Velocity * Velocity. Taking the 45 ACP FTX above as an example, the Velocity is 1000 fps. The bullet weight is 185 grains. Which is 185/7000 pounds. Pounds is force, in this case the force of gravity on the mass, so from Force = Mass * Acceleration, 185/7000 = Mass * 32.2 (which is the approximate gravitational acceleration near the surface). The mass is then 185/7000/32.2. So if you multiply this out Energy = 1/2 * 185/7000/32.2 * 1000 * 1000 = 401.38 - which is the energy reported above for that bullet.

    Now a 1 lb weight has a mass of 1/32.2. So if this free falling mass impacts at the same energy of 401 ft-lbs, then 401 = 1/2 * (1/32.2) * v * v or v = 160 fps.

    For the 9mm FTX, 332 = 1/2 * (1/32.2) * V * V = 146 fps.

    For a Hornady 45 ACP TAP +P 230 gr JHP has a muzzle velocity of 950 and energy if 461 ft-lbs. That same mass would be 461 = 1/2 * (1/32.2) * v * v or 172 fps.

    Another example that might make the point more clear is a baseball - which officially weighs between 5 and 5.25 oz (or 5/16 lb). Taking the energy of the 9mm example, 332 = 1/2 (5/16/32.2) * v * v or v = 261 fps.

    Now being hit by a baseball going 261 fps (178 mph) is going to hurt and it's going to knock me on my a$$. Why doesn't the 9mm knock me on down? Because the baseball expends all it's energy in the impact on my chest and imparts is momentum into me (some energy is also lost in deformation of the baseball and my chest). The bullet on the other hand, enters my chest, losing energy tearing flesh, creating the temporary wound channel , breaking bones, and heating things up. Energy is also lost when the bullet deforms during impact and within the body. So the energy is lost to heat mainly and tearing flesh rather than transferring its momentum to my body. The transfer of momentum to my body is what would knock me down.

    I'll bet that anyone that's been hit by a round while wearing a bullet proof vest will attest that they were pushed back some and might be knocked down. The vest deforms as does the bullet generating heat. Less energy is spent in heat and more is spent in momentum transfer (compared to not wearing the vest) so the person reels back some. He only get a fraction of the momentum and his mass, being much larger than the bullet, the speed he reels back is much less than the bullet speed. (FYI - Momentum = Mass * velocity).

    I think the original author may have forgotten to convert from weight to mass and forgot the 1/32.2 factor. I got impact speeds that are much closer to each other for the same 1 lb weight, mainly since the energies are fairly close to each other for all the bullets. Hence you'd expect the 1 lb weight to have similar velocities with similar energies. Or they were taking the residual energy after the tearing of flesh, etc. - that would make more sense. I can't explain the factor of 2 between the 9mm and 45 unless they were taking the residual energy. If they are using the residual energy then I want the 45 since it will tear a lot of flesh and push the BG back some.

    I don't want to be hit any of these things at these speeds.

    Pardon the physics lesson.

  7. #36
    Test with live subjects and hard body armor dispel all of the "Blown off the feet" nonsense.

    It has been demonstrated numerous times that even with rifle caliber rounds, impacting real people wearing proper armor that THERE IS NO KNOCKDOWN!

    The slug is stopped completely and the person still stands!

    -Doc

  8. #37
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    When I was 21 years old my roommate accidently shot me. (.38 special) the impact knocked the wind out of me and my knees buckled but I wasn’t “knocked off my feet”
    See, it's mumbo jumbo like that and skinny little lizards like you thinking they the last dragon that gives Kung Fu a bad name.
    http://www.gunrightsmedia.com/ Internet forum dedicated to second amendment

  9. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Cocked _and_Locked View Post
    Yeah, can I get that in HE or incendiary?

    Got a Bofors out in the barn I might just have to break out one of these days....

  10. #39
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    The pistol I use for home defense is a full-sized .45. Being a large gun, the recoil is manageable and I can get pretty accurate double-taps out of it. Living in S. Florida where light clothing is the norm most of the time, a big .45 isn't always the most appropriate or convenient choice for CC. I have a subcompact .45 but the recoil is much more harsh than the full-size and as a result any follow-up shots aren't nearly as accurate. Because of this I usually carry a 9mm sub or sometimes a .380 pocket gun. For me they're far more accurate than a .45 when it comes to subcompacts. I'm of the school that smaller, well-placed shots are better than larger, less accurate ones.

  11. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by B2Tall View Post
    The pistol I use for home defense is a full-sized .45. Being a large gun, the recoil is manageable and I can get pretty accurate double-taps out of it. Living in S. Florida where light clothing is the norm most of the time, a big .45 isn't always the most appropriate or convenient choice for CC. I have a subcompact .45 but the recoil is much more harsh than the full-size and as a result any follow-up shots aren't nearly as accurate. Because of this I usually carry a 9mm sub or sometimes a .380 pocket gun. For me they're far more accurate than a .45 when it comes to subcompacts. I'm of the school that smaller, well-placed shots are better than larger, less accurate ones.
    True about the size for most. I'm one who can carry a full size 1911 IWB with a typical t-shirt on and shorts like the Coast Guard uses and not show it. Advantage of being a little overweight?

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