Had to Remove a Student Today - Opinions Sought - Page 3
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Thread: Had to Remove a Student Today - Opinions Sought

  1. #21
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    West Michigan
    Posts
    783

    Looking Down Loaded Gun Barrels...

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Mustang View Post
    Pointing a loaded weapon in an unsafe direction is the first step in a chain of events that leads to accidental injury or death. Regardless of where one's fingers are located.
    I'm totally with you here, Doc.

    The student in question sounds like he had potential serious mental issues and was a danger to himself and others. Stating familiarity with arms and then proceeding to violate every safety rule has to lend others to question this persons motivation and mental state. The instructors were more than forgiving in my opinion and probably should have closed this guy out sooner.
    “You shall know the truth and the truth shall make you mad.” – Aldous Huxley

  2.   
  3. It would be interesting to see if his comments on the application to participate were accurate or fraudulent.

  4. Quote Originally Posted by BC1 View Post
    This weekend I held the class "NRA Personal Protection Outside The Home." Saturday was eight hours of lecture, bookwork, demonstration and dry-fire exercises. I had one student who felt the need to interject his opinion on everything that was said. He was bogging us down and we couldn't keep him quiet. I was the lead instructor and had two other NRA instructors and a SWAT weapons instructor working the class as we like a one-to-one instructor/student ratio during the live fire parts of the class.

    Well today (Sunday) was the advanced live-fire exercises. Sixteen students overall and four at a time on the line (with four instructors). Then this particular student came on the line. Look out! He had much difficulty following instructions. First, we found him looking down the barrel of his loaded .45. He was warned and advised of the safety violations. A few minutes later another instructor caught him looking down the barrel. He was warned again and argued that he was not compromising safety on the firing line. Then the police trainer caught him loading the gun while pointing it directly at him. Lastly, I caught him with the loaded gun turned toward himself wiping some smudges off it. He then looked down the barrel again.

    The police instructor requested he hand over the gun and step off the line. He refused. The LEO warned him to turn over the gun or he would forceably take it and arrest him. He begrudgingly gave it up. I locked the gun in the clubhouse and returned to the range to find him arguing that he wasn't doing anything wrong. Tried to tell me all the other instructors were wrong. These are well trained instructors with intuitive knowledge and extensive experience in personal protection. I believe they acted in the best interest of the club, the other students and our own personal safety (even though we all wear vests during live-fire). I refunded his money and repossessed his NRA certificate of completion. When the class ended he was escorted to the main gate, his gun was returned and the gate was locked behind him (he's not a member of this club).

    In the event he shot himself or another student you can bet we would have been named in any lawsuit. Although we carry $6,000,000 liability insurance between us I believed that allowing him to continue presented significant liability to all involved. Ignorance at it's best. yet he's had a CCW permit for 25 years.I thought the LEO was going to choke him as he wouldn't shut up until threatened with police intervention.

    The best part was that we had another instructor teaching "NRA Basic Pistol" in the clubhouse and this occurred while he was covering handgun safety. Those students got a good look at stupidity in action.

    What do you think? Please provide your opinions? Did we handle him correctly.

    In all the years of teaching this was my first experience with such a serious issue.
    It appears you had a stupid student and we all know you can' fix stupid. Good job, you may have saved his life, until he obtains another weapon in an uncontrolled situation.

  5. #24
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Lincoln County, Missouri
    Posts
    20
    I'm surprised you gave him that many chances. I would have removed him after the second violation.
    All that is neccessary for the triumph of evil, is that good men do nothing...Edmund Burke

  6. Brabbit

    You should not have to seek any justification for your actions! The safety of students, and instructers is in your hands. IMO you did the right thing, but you were not teaching a group of children T-Ball. You were instructing the proper use of a deadly weapon and one stupid action could end in tragedy!One warning should have been enough, the second offense should have been the end. And as far as argueing with the LEO .......? I sincerely hope that this student was not a plant.

  7. I think you did the right thing, maybe a little quicker would have been better. How did that idiot ever get a ccw ? No testing I assume ?

  8. #27
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Rensselaer Co. NY
    Posts
    19
    Of course you did the right thing, and could have done it even sooner - looking down the barrel of a loaded 45 LOL I didn't realize that that level of stupidity could make it through 25 years of CCW... Alive that is. Heck I didn't think that would survive 25 days...

  9. Had to Remove a Student

    I was certified as a Basic Marksmanship Instructor at the Arizona State Prison Complex, and in my opinion, you gave this fool far more chances than I would have. I cite the safety rules the very first thing. Then my students get one warning if I see them violating a safety rule. Second rule violation and they are off my range. Some say that the rule review is the warning, but people do make mistakes. I let them know that any mistake is unacceptable, because it only takes one mistake to kill someone.
    A man without a gun is a subject; a man with a gun is a citizen.
    I'll keep my freedom, my guns and my money. You can keep THE CHANGE.
    An armed society is a polite society.

  10. "Ignorance at it's best. yet he's had a CCW permit for 25 years."

    This student was taking your course as a refresher? My opinion is 1) one major screw-up allowed; any more and out. 2) minor screw-ups that don't relate to safety are correctable and a hint to keep a closer eye on your student. 3) some major screw-ups are NOT allowed. Dropping a loaded handgun on the range or deliberately pointing a loaded (or unloaded since they are "always" loaded) weapon at someone should get you kicked off. Is a question if he points the gun at himself (please look up the short story "Marching Morons" - I kind of agree about the culling problem although several police officer friends say that may not be a problem )

    If this guy has a CCW is there any way to have it revoked? He appears to need some medical (mental) attention.

    TG

  11. #30
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Florida Panhandle
    Posts
    3,098

    I have kicked people off the range before

    Stupid is as stupid does and when stupid threatens sane by careless actions...stupid leaves
    FESTUS
    IN OMNIA PARATUS

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