Pima County, Arizona SWAT Team Shoots Iraqi Veteran 60 Times!! - Page 3
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Thread: Pima County, Arizona SWAT Team Shoots Iraqi Veteran 60 Times!!

  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by shooter View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by scottbland247 View Post
    There is an issue with allowing police to shoot anyone who doesn't comply, while letting them run into a house without requiring them to give the residents time to process that these are actually police trying to get in....no knock warrants or "knock and bang" warrants are a huge danger to society.
    Sorry...police who shoot people for simple non-compliance is not a standard practice and happens rarely. Those occasions are investigated and if a crime was committed, they are charged, tried, and sometimes convicted...all based on the criminal justice system.

    This case is not about "allowing police to shoot anyone who doesn't comply." This case is about someone engaged in criminal activity who confronted cops with a firearm.
    . Shooter, with no trial yet the only thing we actually know this guy was guilty of was picking up a gun when men charged into his house. Even the police haven't claimed to have found anything yet other than guns and bodyarmor which isn't illegal. If you charge into my house and I don't hear you yell police and I grab a gun, I get shot. That is dangerous and ridiculous. On another note, I am confused how you have so much faith in the flawlessness of the police/court system. I should not have to wait on a court to protect my rights if I get shot by a cop.....I should simply not get shot by a cop in my house at 3am. We literally just had a state court say that people have no right to defend themselves from unlawful entry by police and that we should just allow them in and sue later...that is a major erosion of our rights.

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  3. #22
    On a somewhat related issue, Brandon Smith from alt-market.com had among other things, this to say.

    The legal concept of citizen privacy from government intrusion is unfortunately a very new one in the long strides of human history. The idea that government can be limited, or restricted in its powers by the people, and that certain realms of life can and should be off-limits to the prying eyes of bureaucracy, is rarely applied in any culture of any era. This is because most civilizations have been founded and ruled upon the principles of military dominance. There was no separation between the government and the armies it fashioned; the government WAS the military. That is to say, martial law was a way of life for society, privacy was a foolish dream, and daring to contest the fact usually led to one’s death.

    The divide between law enforcement and the citizenry is growing. With the Department of Homeland Security now actively placing local police and sheriff’s departments in military training regiments, in military style gear, and even arming them with tanks and heavy machine guns (yes, tanks and .50 cal machine guns), it is becoming much harder to qualify local law enforcement as a civilian entity, rather than just another extension of the Department of Defense.



    Where we once had a few “bad apples” to contend with in our police departments, now we have official training handed down from the DOD which practically requires law enforcement officials to undergo a combat mindset, a psychology of aggression. In many cases, I believe, these officers are not doing what they do out of malice or ill intent. They are doing what they do because they are being TRAINED to do it. This is what happens when a society becomes militarized. It cannot be avoided, and it will only get worse from here on. Now imagine a violent element like this being given unlimited power to decide which homes they wish to enter and how they will enter them…

    While fantastic organizations like Oath Keepers are working hard to educate police and military on their sworn duty to uphold and defend Constitutional liberties, we as the citizenry must also show our support and resolve to see that the values and principles outlined in that historic document are not tarnished by apathy. The proverbial line in the sand must be drawn now, or not at all. This means, at the very least, non-compliance with unjust laws that defile our conscience, as well as our heritage.

    The common response to this by naysayers would be: “You’ll comply when you have a gun in your face…”

    That’s what naysayer throughout history have always said, though. They said it to the Founding Fathers, to Gandhi, and beyond. There will always be another gun to put in the faces of men who fight for the truth of a thing. There will always be men to point those guns at us. The question is, who will be more steadfast? Is the will to dominate really stronger than the will to be free? Can you ever control a people who do not fear you, even at the barrel of a gun? This is the mindset that brought this country to life, and it is a mindset we must rediscover, if we are to have any chance of survival.

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  4. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by shooter View Post
    ... They had a signed warrant for that home, as well as 3 others, at the end of a 20-month investigation. There was plenty of reasonable belief that this guy was a bad dude, that he was engaged in illegal activity, and that delivery of the search warrant was high-risk. The guy pointed a firearm at cops, the cops responded appropriately and the result was he lost his life.
    They investigated this guy for 20 MONTHS and they couldn't find a safer way for this whole mess to go down?!?!?! Did the guy never go to the grocery store? Did he never walk out to get the mail? Did he never leave the house? If they have a warrant, why not search the house when he's not there? Why not grab him outside the house when they can be more certain that he doesn't have a whole arsenal with him? Why not serve the warrant when the wife isn't home? Was she a "bad dude" too? Because last I heard, she isn't in custody! But they chose to put her life in danger as well? Well, she's married to a "bad dude" so if she dies.... oh well! Just blame it on the hubby!

    Quote Originally Posted by shooter View Post
    Lesson learned -- don't engage in criminal behavior so that there is a potential for cops to show up at your door with a search warrant. And, if they do, it's not a good idea to point firearms at them because they will probably shoot you in self-defense because they reasonably believe they are in immediate threat of serious bodily harm or death.
    There is ALWAYS that potential!! Police DO get bad intel! Police DO go to the wrong house! It happens! Pull your head out of the sand!

    Hell, here's a mayor whose house was raided and whose dogs were shot for his trouble!
    Feds investigating drug raid on small-town mayor's home - CNN.com
    Lucky for everyone that HE didn't have a gun, right?

    Unfortunately, (at least in my neighborhood) the chances of a dirt bag kicking in my door are even greater than the police doing it... they may even yell "Police! Search warrant!" as they're doing it. I don't engage in criminal behavior though, so do I arm myself in case it's a dirt bag or do I disarm in case it's an honest mistake by the police? I guess I'm damned if I do, and damned if I don't.


    Quote Originally Posted by shooter View Post
    Your post intimates that police should never make a mistake...
    No, what we're all trying to say is that the risk involved in "no knock warrants" FAR exceeds the benefits! They dramatically increase the chances of somebody dying and there is almost always another way to catch the bad guy!

    Quote Originally Posted by shooter View Post
    Sorry...police who shoot people for simple non-compliance is not a standard practice and happens rarely.
    It happens MUCH too often when it comes to "no knock warrants"! The links have been posted (and that's just a small sample of the incidents), you either chose to ignore them, or the number of avoidable deaths that is acceptable to you is a lot different than some of us here.

    You're totally in the minority here,
    Billy

  5. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by shooter View Post
    Your snide and sarcastic remarks reveal a bitter anti-police attitude and general paranoia about law enforcement. It's apparent and obvious you know zip about this stuff and nothing anyone ever says or evidence produced will change your mind. So, I'm not going to try to.

    The point I got from KAM65's post was that this event was just another in a line of unfortunate incidents in which mistakes were made. In that regard, he was wrong. They had a signed warrant for that home, as well as 3 others, at the end of a 20-month investigation. There was plenty of reasonable belief that this guy was a bad dude, that he was engaged in illegal activity, and that delivery of the search warrant was high-risk. The guy pointed a firearm at cops, the cops responded appropriately and the result was he lost his life.

    Lesson learned -- don't engage in criminal behavior so that there is a potential for cops to show up at your door with a search warrant. And, if they do, it's not a good idea to point firearms at them because they will probably shoot you in self-defense because they reasonably believe they are in immediate threat of serious bodily harm or death.

    Your post intimates that police should never make a mistake and that they on the whole intentionally engage in premeditated murder to cover mistakes if and when they do make them. It's a free country to say and believe whatever you want...but, the fact that you would take that position is disturbing to me.

    Good luck to you.
    That's pretty much exactly the same thing the Atlanta PD said after they murdered Kathryn Johnston... until their conspiracy imploded after they tried to strongarm the wrong informant and he literally dove from a moving car to run to the FBI.

    I'm not inclined to give the police the benefit of the doubt on these things and am even less inclined to do so in this case, ESPECIALLY after the constant "John Carpenter's the Thing"-like metamorphoses of the police "fable".

    Police made a "mistake" in the Kathryn Johnston case and a COMPLETELY innocent woman is DEAD. Unfortunately, to many cops and their supporters, it's just a "cost of doing business". And if the victim (or his/her survivors) sue, cops and their supporters will INEVITABLY call it the "ghetto lottery", as if somebody was eagerly waiting to be wrongfully shot by the police so that their SURVIVORS could get a cash settlement. But then I've seen cops call a lawsuit by someone KIDNAPPED as a child by a home invasion and kidnapping ring operating INSIDE of a police department described as "opportunistic".

    There is PROFOUND contempt for the non-criminal public by WAY too many cops. You have to wonder how they're surprised when that attitude is returned in kind.

  6. #25
    Yet another story of "door kicking," this time, over unpaid govt. student loan...gotta love it!

    You may want to go make sure your federal government student loans are in good order right now. That’s because, as a Stockton, CA mean just learned, the federal government will bust down your door to get its money. Or even the door of your estranged spouse.

    Kenneth Wright was home with his three children early Tuesday morning. He hadn’t even gotten dressed for the day yet, and was still in his boxers. That’s when he looked outside and got a surprise.

    “I look out of my window and I see 15 police officers,” Wright told News10. Then, the SWAT team busted down his door, allegedly grabbed him by the neck and put him in a police car for six hours, and even roused his children (ages 3,7, and 11) out of bed.

    But there’s just one problem. The police weren’t after Wright. They were after his estranged wife. Not surprisingly, they didn’t find her:
    Fed. Gov‘t SWAT Team Busts Down Man’s Door Over Estranged Wife’s Student Loans | The Blaze
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  7. #26
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    Pima County deputies face theft, drug charges

    Ran across this today. Link to the entire article with pictures: 2 former Pima County deputies face theft, drug charges

    Two former deputies with the Pima County Sheriff’s Department were indicted on federal charges of stealing drugs and money during traffic stops, officials said.
    Miguel Arvizu and Francisco J. Jimenez Jr. were indicted in early May but the indictment was kept sealed until Friday, said Robert Sherwood, a spokesman for the U.S. Attorney’s Office in Arizona.

    Jimenez was on duty and in uniform in his patrol car when he took about $8,000 during two traffic stops in June and October of 2010, the indictment says. Arvizu is accused of setting up those traffic stops.
    In November 2010 Jimenez provided “security” in his patrol car while co-conspirators stole controlled substances and drug money from a storage facility in Green Valley, Sherwood said in the news release. Agents of the Federal Bureau of Investigation in Tucson conducted the investigation. Arvizu is accused of posing as a sheriff’s deputy and convincing co-conspirators he could help steal money from drug trafficking organizations, according to the indictment.

    The two would share the stolen cash, the news release said.
    Arvizu was charged with eight counts, including theft of government money and property as well as attempted distribution of marijuana and cocaine.
    Jimenez was charged with three counts of theft of government money and with attempted possession with the intent to distribute of more than 100 kilograms of marijuana, the news release says.

    Arvizu was hired by the sheriff’s department in June 2003 and resigned as a deputy in April 2010, said Deputy Jason Ogan, a department spokesman. Arvizu was not employed by the department when the incidents took place. Jimenez was hired June of 2006 and resigned March 17, Ogan said.
    Contact reporter Fernanda Echavarri at [email protected]
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    but I repeat myself.
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  8. Well, here's my take on this. I think there should never be a SWAT team or no-knock raid on anyone, other than established criminal who are known to be violent. That would cut out a good chunk of the illegitimate raids. Here's another safeguard -- any individual or organization involved in mistaken raids or raids on other than established violent criminals will be subject to severe criminal and civil penalties, without any sovereign shield, regardless of any damage or injury to the victim of their mistake. Maybe some of these bozos would think twice if they know they will be held accountable.

  9. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by joemendoza View Post
    Well, here's my take on this. I think there should never be a SWAT team or no-knock raid on anyone, other than established criminal who are known to be violent. That would cut out a good chunk of the illegitimate raids. Here's another safeguard -- any individual or organization involved in mistaken raids or raids on other than established violent criminals will be subject to severe criminal and civil penalties, without any sovereign shield, regardless of any damage or injury to the victim of their mistake. Maybe some of these bozos would think twice if they know they will be held accountable.
    So, police shouldn't take precautions in case of the potential and have reasonable belief?

    Come on...that's just dumb. To do otherwise would put more cops at risk of serious bodily harm or death. Do you want more cops killed?

    Besides, in this case, the raid was not a mistake.

    Lastly, courts have held that even if raids are mistakes, but were conducted "in good faith" based on a totality of circumstances behind the raid, they are still legal.
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  10. #29
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    I use to believe the police were good guys, but now I am afraid of them!

  11. #30
    Living here in Arizona you will find the Sheriff is king. Maricopa and Pima county. They have no rules or regulations. Sheriff Joe's Maricopa sheriffs were just busted themselves for trafficing drugs and info out of the booking station. 3 or 4 of them.

    But back to this video, if you notice once the shooting starts, you can the see the guy in the very back, casually reach his gun in over everyone eles backs and just fires blindly into the house. I'm sure they all got a good laugh back at the station.

    My advice, if your ever in Arizona and a Sheriff lights you up, call 911 explain your scared and get somewhere where you can have some independent witnesess before you pull over. It might save your life

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