Can We PA-leez Put the Sheep Dog Myth To Rest? - Page 12
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Thread: Can We PA-leez Put the Sheep Dog Myth To Rest?

  1. #111
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    One thing I want to address Blues mentions aiding your fellow man with out a gun and in fact I said the exact same thing in this post:

    Quote Originally Posted by Treo View Post
    What good would it do? Wouldn't your time be better spent trying to help the poor guy that got pushed onto the tracks?
    I don’t see something like that as sheepdoggery that’s just doing the decent thing and I have no problem with that.

    My issue is when nutnfancy talks about being a sheep dog he makes it clear being a “sheepdog” is predicated on carrying a gun and using that gun to fight crime and rescue the sheep. I challenge anyone out there to show my a video where nutnfancy states that if you walk out your door with out a pair of jumper cables you have failed in your civic duty as a sheep dog . My buddy from work never asks me if I’m carrying a barrier device (I’ve never had to use a gun to assist a bystander but I have done CPR) and tells me I’m a blood sucking leech if I’m not.

    When it comes down to being a “sheep dog” it’s always about the gun; it’s always about getting into a gun battle with some bad guy to defend the 20$ in Burger King’s till.

    Then when someone like me says “That’s not why I carry a gun” it morphs into “and you’d stand there and watch you’re fellow man freeze to death on the street.” While the chest beaters congratulate themselves on how brave they are.

    So, let me be clear here, when I say I’m not a sheep dog I mean ‘I’m not the guy that likes to aggrandize himself on the internet by stating that the fact that I have a concealed carry permit somehow invests me with police authority and a duty to respond to any and all crimes I may encounter regardless of my knowledge of said crime or my possession of the facts concerning the scenario I’m interjecting myself into or any way of providing for my family if I’m crippled or killed in so doing.”

    And now if you’ll excuse me “Big Bang” is on
    See, it's mumbo jumbo like that and skinny little lizards like you thinking they the last dragon that gives Kung Fu a bad name.
    http://www.gunrightsmedia.com/ Internet forum dedicated to second amendment

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  3. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by Treo View Post
    My issue is when nutnfancy talks about being a sheep dog he makes it clear being a “sheepdog” is predicated on carrying a gun and using that gun to fight crime and rescue the sheep. I challenge anyone out there to show my a video where nutnfancy states that if you walk out your door with out a pair of jumper cables you have failed in your civic duty as a sheep dog .
    If jumping somebody off who has a dead battery is all the further you're willing to go to save them from "harm," you definitely should continue on with your delusions of what it means to have a sheepdog mentality. You'll stay out of the way of whoever is really prepared to step up that way.

    Aside from that, you're just flat out wrong that nutnfancy's or Lt. Col. Grossman's philosophy focuses entirely on gun-play. Here's the Description to the video that nutnfancy posted to clarify exactly what he means when he refers to "his sheepdogs in TNP." I challenge you to show me the word "gun" or "shoot" or anything that can be remotely connected to a laser-beam-like focus on weaponry to fulfill the duty he feels to his his fellow man within his explanation of how he views the concept:

    The Sheepdog Concept
    Uploaded on Nov 4, 2009
    Your actions could save lives. At the heart of what I have referred to as The Sheepdog is a selflessness that looks outwardly to the needs of others. They cannot abide watching their fellow humans beings suffer and die while they do nothing. They are compelled into action even when those actions could lead to their own deaths or injury. The Sheepdog comes from every walk of life, every race, and can be male or female; it is impossible to identify them from appearance alone. It is their actions in the face of horrific situations that reveals the Sheepdog as they step forward when no one else will. Lenny Skutnik, in the face of the tragic Air Florida crash in 1982 into the icy Potomac River, was just such an unassuming Sheepdog. He jumped into the aviation fuel soaked and frigid waters to save passenger Priscilla Tirado just before she slipped beneath the water to her death. Hundreds had been watching Priscilla flounder and would have watch her die without doing anything. These are sheep that are frozen into inaction by their lives of denial and lack of mental and material preparation. They are not bad people but nore are they heroic; they're just there. Leeny's Sheepdog heart was revealed that day. They are others like him in civilian, law enforcement, fire fighting, and military ranks. But they are relatively few indeed and they are special. Few have what I feel possess the other key qualities of the Sheepdog (discussed in the video): a strong value system, unassuming manner, bravery, judgment and maturity, preparation, practiced skill sets, and a strong sense of duty in the face of often scary circumstances. The Sheepdog Concept is foundational to my gear reviews here: an attempt to give quality information to help equip you good people for your "day." Both mental and material prepartation can expand your capabilities in this important calling. Good Sheepdogs span the ranks and include responsible and caring civilians, law enforcement officials, firefighters, paramedics, PJs, EMTs, pilots, and soldiers. Many of these come to TNP to get this info as they equip and prepare. I try hard not to let them down. I salute them all and I myself try to aspire to their level.
    I have no doubt in my mind that if that video had been made this week, instead of three years ago, nutnfancy would've used the guy on the train tracks as an example of the tragedy that can happen when people willing to engage their sheepdog hearts aren't around. It is not all about the gun with him.

    What he opened with was the story of Lenny Skutnik, mentioned above in his description. He put others ahead of himself. He didn't have or need a gun to earn the honor of being viewed as a sheepdog by nutnfancy. He just did the insane thing of diving into freezing water to pull one of the four survivors of a plane crash out of the water when it became apparent that the helicopter crew that was trying to save her was going to fail. A dangerous, selfless act. No guns. Not even any crime involved. Just selflessness. That's it.

    He highlighted in the video that being a sheepdog means being as well-versed as one can be in first aid, because you never know when your skills might be needed.

    Yeah, he told a couple or three stories about sheepdogs whose armed status allowed them to save the day too. But it's about the selflessness, not about being "Superman" or a hero or anybody special at all. Just be willing to act if/when you are able and the opportunity arises where your action(s) will be a net gain.

    This is really weird for me, because all I've ever been interested in at YouTube was gear reviews and music. For me, I almost never seek out videos of gun reviews, and rarely sit through political speeches or recordings of news events, but rather, I try to get a closer and better look at knives I'm interested in, or body armor and plate carriers (when I was working in armored transport), backpacks, custom sheaths, whatever camping and/or survival gear I'm in the market for at any given time. Nutnfancy reviews all of the stuff I'm interested in, and it really baffles me that he's slammed for the things he's slammed for. If I want as much info on a knife as I can find, would I go to a manufacturer's 2-minute marketing video, or to a 45 minute full-on field test out in the woods using the knife for chopping, batoning, shelter-building, making snare-traps etc? Duh. But the #1 complaint of nutnfancy is that he's too long-winded! And on this forum, it's that he believes in selflessness too much! He believes that the survival training and combat experience that he learned from his fighter-pilot-father, supplemented by becoming a fighter pilot himself first, and as a tanker pilot up to retirement from the Air Force, should be beneficial to the society he walks around more or less free in now that he's retired. The nerve of that guy, huh?

    I'm not even claiming that I'm a sheepdog really. I do believe that I would have the presence of mind to quickly evaluate most situations I might find myself in, and determine if it was time to step in and if it would likely be a help or a hindrance if I did. I would like to think that if my determination was that I could be a help to preventing someone(s) from being harmed without exacerbating the overall situation, that I would have the fortitude and courage to do it, whether or not it involved my gun. The gun is only one tool used in the sheepdog's toolbox. It could be your loud voice as you take control of a chaotic situation. It could be as simple as reaching down and giving someone a hand up from the well of a train track when many bystanders are just frozen by group-think to not get involved, or they're scared or whatever. Or it may well involve the use of a gun. But it boils down to a selfless mentality, and that is the crux of the philosophy, not the gun.

    Quote Originally Posted by Treo View Post
    Then when someone like me says “That’s not why I carry a gun” it morphs into “and you’d stand there and watch you’re fellow man freeze to death on the street.”
    Maybe that's because those people actually listened to what is meant by the concept of a sheepdog, and you, obviously, have not. At least not where nutnfancy is concerned, because clearly, you have his philosophy pegged 180 degrees out of phase if you think his only focus is on using your gun, or even crime-fighting at all. It's about being helpful if/when you can be, reducing suffering if/when you can, wanting/expecting nothing in return, not even praise.

    Quote Originally Posted by Treo View Post
    While the chest beaters congratulate themselves on how brave they are.
    And who might that be?

    Quote Originally Posted by Treo View Post
    So, let me be clear here, when I say I’m not a sheep dog I mean ‘I’m not the guy that likes to aggrandize himself on the internet by stating that the fact that I have a concealed carry permit somehow invests me with police authority and a duty to respond to any and all crimes I may encounter regardless of my knowledge of said crime or my possession of the facts concerning the scenario I’m interjecting myself into or any way of providing for my family if I’m crippled or killed in so doing.”
    Nah, you're just the guy who criticizes and tells half-truths about a freakin' YouTube video producer who encourages his friends and fans to do what they can to help others when the opportunity presents itself. You "aggrandize" yourself by putting others down, but you're right, you stand firmly against the idea that if you can help, can evaluate the situation to the point of knowing whether or not your intervention will actually help rather than hinder the situation, can show courage when the odds are against you (like Lenny Skutnik, not necessarily someone using a gun), then you won't. It ain't your business. You're not getting involved. And that's fine. You'd be in the way anyway. But I have no idea why it's important to you to put down those who would involve themselves in selfless acts of courage. It seems obsessive with you, what with that "the anti sheepdog" crap next to your nick. Whatever.

    Blues
    No one has ever heard me say that I "hate" cops, because I don't. This is why I will never trust one again though: You just never know...

  4. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by BluesStringer View Post
    but you're right, you stand firmly against the idea that if you can help, can evaluate the situation to the point of knowing whether or not your intervention will actually help rather than hinder the situation, can show courage when the odds are against you (like Lenny Skutnik, not necessarily someone using a gun), then you won't. It ain't your business. You're not getting involved. And that's fine. You'd be in the way anyway.

    You really seem to get off on calling me a coward and it’s funny to me because (unlike you) I actually have stepped up and been a “hero” I was even decorated for it by the department of the Army. I hate to be the one to bust your bubble but being a “hero” really isn’t a life changing event, it happens and life goes on.

    In the moment you aren’t thinking about it you’re just scared. When it’s over the guy that puts in the paperwork to get you the medal has no problem putting you on K.P. the next day and by the time they actually get around to pinning it on you everyone (including you) is sooooo over it. They pin the medal on you, tell you what an asset you are to the Army, salute you and move on to the next guy and life goes on. I still had to salute officers; I still had to pull C.Q. I even still had to take dump every day and the only time anyone ever even mentioned the medal was when I had to go through a Class A inspection at Ft. Sam and all of the vets thought it was funny that the person inspecting us only had an Army Service Ribbon and a National Defense ribbon. I do admit it was amusing to watch her get a little bug eyed when she saw my salad bar.

    20 years down the road, I don’t sit there with my wife and look at the citation, in fact I don't even know (or care) if she's ever read it, my kids don’t even know I have it and I don’t think the grandkids even know I was ever in the Army. So, as for my being a coward, I’m not and if you think I am, oh well.


    As for the altruistic things that we do for other folks again, that’s not what comes across (or at least it’s not what I hear) when people talk about being a sheep dog so, if that’s what you guys are trying to convey you need to work on your communication skills.

    I don’t see those things (again) as part of being a sheep dog or at least they aren’t what’s emphasized. I have paid for a stranger’s gas at a gas station before; I’ve also rendered first aid when needed and called the police to the scene of an accident. I’ve also taken homeless friends into my home and given people rides (although I certainly wouldn’t allow a stranger into my car now) but again those types of incidents aren’t what’s discussed when the word “sheepdog” starts getting thrown around. The topic then is usually plugging the bad guys at the Waffle House or the Burger King, or the ubiquitous two guys in a van abducting young girls at Wal Mart. IOW the word always seems to come up when you (generic) want talk about using your shinny new gun to be a “hero”.


    It could be your loud voice as you take control of a chaotic situation.

    I read this and I have to ask, “By what authority” are you taking control of a chaotic situation and what qualifies you to take such authority?" Because that, right there, is why the whole sheepdog mind set concerns me; because it’s all about a assuming a position that isn’t yours and claiming authority you don’t have.

    What happens when you attempt to “take control of that chaotic situation” and the "sheep" tell you to frak off or ignore you entirely?



    Quote Originally Posted by BluesStringer View Post
    But I have no idea why it's important to you to put down those who would involve themselves in selfless acts of courage. It seems obsessive with you, what with that "the anti sheepdog" crap next to your nick. Whatever.
    Blues
    If you don’t understand my position by now maybe I need to work on my communication skills.

    Again, to be very clear I don’t get “altruistic, self sacrifice for the good of mankind” when I read the term sheepdog, what I get is “I want to use my gun and be a hero, I want to pretend that having a Carry Permit makes me a de facto auxiliary police officer regardless of my level of training or judgment or even fitness . I want to assume a position of superiority over the “sheep” and I’m so desperate for something outside myself to validate my existence and my importance that’ll I will perpetuate this myth just to make myself feel good. "

    That's what I hear when I hear "sheepdog"

    I also see people (including nutnfancy and my buddy from work and the whack jobs from the "citizen's CB Patrol") that take that mind set and damn near make a religion out of it. This partially amuses me and partially scares the hell out of me.
    See, it's mumbo jumbo like that and skinny little lizards like you thinking they the last dragon that gives Kung Fu a bad name.
    http://www.gunrightsmedia.com/ Internet forum dedicated to second amendment

  5. #114
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    Treo, you are a sheep dog you are just in denial. your Service record pretty much proves it. I would classify you as a retired sheepdog and that is fine...thank you for your service to our nation.

    I think your ire is in the fact that folks claim to be sheep dogs without having a single clue about what it takes day in and day out to put on whatever uniform and perform the duties that 99% of the populace either cannot or will not do for themselves.

    I understand that. I also understand your I am not a sheepdog statement as possibly humility.
    FESTUS
    IN OMNIA PARATUS

  6. #115
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    It's not the potential that cowardice stops otherwise good people from stepping up that bugs me, in your case it's the lies you repeat even now in the face of incontrovertible evidence that gun-play is not the focus of the Sheepdog Concept that nutnfancy is the primary spokesperson for and promoter of. The video is linked for you, the Description was posted for you, yet you go on as though only your misperceptions of nutnfancy and the philosophy he both lives by and promotes are the only "truth" you're willing to consider.

    You had it completely wrong in the Waffle House thread, and you have it completely wrong here. Like I said, it's like an obsession with you to put others down because.....well.....I don't know because what. Because you had to keep pulling KP after committing a selfless act? Because people didn't slobber all over you giving you kudos for months or years after your selfless act? Doesn't say much for how "selfless" the act was if that's your beef, but I admit, exactly what your beef is, is as elusive as the unicorn I've been hunting for the last few years.

    You make excuses for being a rude, dishonest, cranky curmudgeon, Treo. That's all I see/hear when I read a lot of your posts. It's why you've been on my ignore list since the third or fourth post of yours in the Waffle House thread. I only saw what you posted here because somebody else quoted it, and I tried to give you a way to understand your mistake and recognize the truth, because I have peeked into a few of your posts of late and found profound understanding of The Truth on your part, and I know you are capable of seeing and understanding truth. But on this subject you refuse. So be it. I haven't the words or the inclination to try to bust through your obsessions against nutnfancy or anyone else who practices selflessness. I will refrain from peeking in on your posts from now on. It's a waste.

    Blues
    No one has ever heard me say that I "hate" cops, because I don't. This is why I will never trust one again though: You just never know...

  7. #116
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    I'm really starting to wonder are my posts coming through in Chinese?

    The following is the sheep dog post that started me on my "crusade"

    Quote Originally Posted by Silverlance Originally posted on THR 2/15/08
    The Honorable Burden We Bear : A Shooter's Duty

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    The recent spate of heinious crimes in which firearms were misused have caused many to fear that this sport of ours is at an end. Indeed, as the musical chairs within the White House creak to a stop, we who would see the second amendment upheld are right to fear a corresponding cessation to our rights. These, then, are the burdens we must carry in this breaking age: a commitment to compart ourselves as honorable men and women, a drive to bring more shooters into the pack, and constant awareness of the political winds.

    A Shooter's Duty

    1. I will carry myself as an honorable individual, a veritable exemplar of honesty, gentility, and kindness as befits the critically reasoning individual that I am, so that others respect me and the culture that I bear.

    2. I will always be ready to demonstrate to others the meaning of courage, fearing not to speak when lessen men might remain silent, even if it means that I may draw the baleful attention of the majority.

    3. I will strive vigorously to teach others in the ways of firearms, demystifying the stultifying effects of Mainstream Media, and bringing more enlightened souls into our ranks.

    4. I will care for my firearms, and regularly practice with them proudly, so that I will be competent in the hour of need.

    5. I will be prepared to use my skills and knowledge to defend myself and others, even those who would seek the removal of my rights.

    6. I will maintain relations with this our community of shooters, so that we are a unified body, and may respond en masse as a contigent of citizens to any threat.
    Do you guys not get that people actually believe this crap?

    Here's another

    Quote Originally Posted by 1911tuner a moderator on THR 08/20/08
    The Lonely Sheepdog

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    That is part of the cursedness of the shotgun messenger...the loneliness of it. He is like a sheepdog. Feared by the flock and hated by the wolves. On the stagecoach, he is the necessary evil. Passengers and driver alike regard him with aversion, without him and his pestilential (strong) box, their lives would be 90 percent safer...and they know it.

    The bad men...the rustlers...the stage robbers...hate him. They hate him because he is the guardian of property, because he stands between them and their desires...because they will have to kill him before they can get their hands on the coveted box. Most of all, they hate him because of his shotgun. The homely weapon that makes him the peer of many armed men in the turmoil of powder and lead.

    --Wyatt Earp--

    Still not convinced?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew Rothman 06/16/06 THR
    Be a sheepdog!

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    I've always wanted some low-key way for permit holders to identify each others. And I'm a big fan of David Grossman's "On Sheep, Wolves and Sheepdogs" essay.

    So when I found these, I ordered four dozen, announced them on the local TwinCitiesCarry.com forum, and they sold out in a day!

    Would you be interested in buying one or more of these? If there's sufficient demand, I'll make a big order and start selling.

    One proviso: I'd really, really like these to be worn by card-carrying, gun-carrying permit holders.

    I figure they would cost $2 each, plus USPS shipping per order as follows:
    1-4 pins: $1.25
    5-8: $1.50
    9-13: $1.75
    14-17: $2.00
    18-19: $2.25
    20+: Free shipping

    Let me know what you think by voting in the public poll above. Voting isn't a commitment, of course, just a straw poll to gauge interest.

    Thanks!

    Andrew
    And finally here's the one I reference the most

    Quote Originally Posted by egon 1/11/09 THR
    we're all LEO's

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    In some way, we're all LEO's. We all have the responsibility to help uphold the law, to help those around us, and to be there for the general good of society. We just might not draw as often (hopefully) as the local PD does.
    My response

    Quote Originally Posted by Treo 1/11/09 THR
    Oh HELL no! I am not a cop I am not a sheep dog. I am not the guardian of the people.

    All such an attitude does is aggrandize the CHP holder in their own eyes.

    I carry a weapon for self ( key word there) defense
    See, it's mumbo jumbo like that and skinny little lizards like you thinking they the last dragon that gives Kung Fu a bad name.
    http://www.gunrightsmedia.com/ Internet forum dedicated to second amendment

  8. #117
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    I really do wonder if I’m not communicating myself clearly let me put this in the simplest possible terms.

    As I see it communicated on this and other gun forums the sheepdog meme is directly related to equating a CHP w/ a badge and a duty to respond to crime. The common factor isn’t membership in SerToMa or Kiwanis it’s carrying a gun.

    The type of people I see that most vehemently claim the title appear to be folks with low self worth that are looking for something outside of themselves to make them important.

    I truly believe that a large portion of their self image comes from the self perception that they’re somehow a guardian of society I also believe that is why they get so upset when people don’t buy into the fantasy.

    I want to ask this question of Bluesstringer again very clearly and I really would like an answer
    What gives you the authority to “take control of a chaotic situation”? “What qualifies to exercise said authority?” and finally “What happens when you try to “take control of a chaotic situation” and get told to take a hike?”

    I really would like an answer .
    See, it's mumbo jumbo like that and skinny little lizards like you thinking they the last dragon that gives Kung Fu a bad name.
    http://www.gunrightsmedia.com/ Internet forum dedicated to second amendment

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