Can We PA-leez Put the Sheep Dog Myth To Rest? - Page 5
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Thread: Can We PA-leez Put the Sheep Dog Myth To Rest?

  1. #41
    We all must make the choice as to when we would draw our weapon and confront evil. For some it is only to protect themselves and their family; for others that threshold encompasses more.

    From Blackfive a military blog "" an interesting and germane post about the Norwegian shootings, below is an excerpt:

    POSTED BY GRIM [JULY 23, 2011]

    (list of factors)
    4) When he began shooting, everyone ran.

    That last factor alone is responsible for almost all of the dead. A tight group of young men taught to run at danger instead of away from it could have overpowered him almost at once.

    As that did not happen, he had a clear field of fire and a target rich environment. As that started a panic, probably some were trampled and others drowned. The police did not arrive for a long time, giving him time to finish what he had begun -- but the police will never be around when one of these mass killings happens, unless it is targeted at them specifically. It is always easy to find a soft target if you want one, even in a police state.

    The key lesson to mass shootings is that the whole of our societies must remember their duty to fight for the common peace and lawful order. We must all do it. We must train for it, and we must equip ourselves as well as the law and our natural abilities permit. This is the duty of a citizen. It is a duty that cannot be delegated to the police or to the military. It must be borne by all of us. We must train our sons for this duty also. In a dangerous world, this alone is what makes civilization possible."
    I say we take off and nuke the entire site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.

  3. I agree with Treo about people not actual sheepdogs

    As far as the people are concerned we are in agreement. I have an animal science degree and years of field experience. You don't know what the heck you are talking about when it comes to sheepdogs. First of all a real sheep dog like a Great Pyreneese is a particularly ferocious dog that has been grafted into a flock of sheep to be their protector. Grafting them into a human family defeats the purpose of their training. He grew up with the lambs and thinks he is a sheep; but he has all the instincts and weapons of a dog/wolf. The sheep are his pack...and the sheep don't have the slightest idea why the dog acts wierd. Some of the really good ones are so psychotic they have to be tranquilized for the sheep ranchers to even handle the sheep. Sheep do not run from predators. They don't fight predators. When threatened they crowd in a bunch with biggest, most socially dominant in the center for protection. Their survival instinct is to sacrifice the smaller weaker sheep to the predators so the more important sheep live. A wolf/dog is a pack animal. The pack can either fight or run as the situation dictates. When the pack can't/won't run the dog's instinct is to get between a threat and the weak elements of the pack, particularly the pups. Making a dog a member of a sheep flock means that the dog is put in a position of being between his family and danger (the sheep are not any help.....because they ARE sheep.). The dog is not in charge of the sheep and has no control over anything the sheep do. The sheep ALWAYS bunch up at the first sign of a threat. A good sheepdog is put into a situation where he has to fight WHATEVER comes along albeit other dogs, foxes, coyotes, wolves, lions, bears, etc. A sheepdog that runs is next to useless. They spend their lives in the pastures playing with their sheep friends and killing ANYthing on sight that might remotely be considered a threat to the sheep, usually without waiting for it to actually threaten a sheep. They are fed cooked meat or dog food by the shepherds because we certainly don't want them seeing the flock as a food source.

    Sheep dogs that actually herd sheep and round them border collies live with the shepherd they don't live with the sheep and their job/instinct is to chase sheep.......not a good thing without someone to control their sport.

  4. #43
    I'm probably gonna get in some trouble for this but I thought sheep dog was a bad thing.

  5. #44

    Wink Sheepdogs

    Quote Originally Posted by B2Tall View Post
    Treo, you have clearly become the sheepdog who is defending us all against this evil sheepdog myth.

    Five pages into this thread and I am just getting around to explaining the sheepdog concept.

  6. Treo, have you attended any of Grossman's courses? (not poking, just asking as his courses are interesting)

    He's known to mention in some seminars that his principles apply to everyone. Security staff (armed and unarmed), military, LEOs, and the responsible citizen. He also says in his courses, one of which I've attended, that one must know when to be a good witness and when to enter a defensive mode.

    My favorite line from him: Unarmed security is no security at all.

    I agree, some stretch the sheepdog into something it's clearly not. But please don't mistake Grossman's principles as applying just to the higher end of the spectrum. These would have been applicable during the American Revolution and those folks didn't have an organized military like we have today. We also don't want folks getting into the frame of mind that it's OUR responsibility to protect those who refuse to protect themselves, that opens up the possiblity of liability which is unacceptable.

    Let me remind everyone of something very important. The US Supreme Court ruled a few years back (have to find the case brief) that LEOs have NO duty to protect. That means very clearly that it's YOUR personal duty to protect yourself, not that of someone else.

  7. #46
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Sandpoint, Idaho
    The first time I ever heard the sheepdog analogy was getting my permit last year. The instructor used it as an example of why people choose to carry. It made perfect sense: the world is full of nice, gentle sheep, and the wolves who prey on them. People who carry are sheepdogs--they may look like wolves because they have teeth and claws (guns) but their intent is to protect the sheep--or not to eat them, at any rate. I think it was a good metaphor to show that just because someone is armed, it doesn't mean they are a threat.

    My instructor also pointed out that no one has the obligation to help another, and that you need to be sure of circumstances before stepping in to any situation. I am the type of person who helps others, but that doesn't mean I think everyone should.

    Recent studies have shown that the "hero" mentality is hardwired--either you have it or you don't. So the notion to watch over the sheep is largely controlled by forces outside of a person's influence.

    I also think the sheepdog metaphor has been way too over analyzed, to the point where it's not functioning in its original capacity anymore. Even those among us who feel obligated to watch out for others are certainly much more complex, and think in far more abstract ways, than a simple, loyal, shaggy dog.

  8. #47
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    ARIZONA-a short distance from the sun
    I did not acquire a conceal carry permit so that I could protect my neighbors or the general public. I acquired my permit to protect myself and my family only. And for the "we do it for the children" crowd, give it up, please. If I were to see a child being raped or physically abused, yes, like anyone else I would intervene, but be assured that I wouldn't "need a gun" to put a stop to it. When was the last time anyone here has come across the rape or attempted murder of a child, anywhere, let alone in a public place? If you are "filthy rich" and wish to be a hero, have at it, it's your choice, your life, and your money. As it has been stated before, we all have the same right to own a gun and/or acquire a permit to carry. For those who don't care enough or are foolish/unwise in their choices,there are consequences. For those who are foolish/unwise in their choice to intervene due to others foolish/unwise choices, there are consequences. That's what makes the world go round. My choice is not to be a sheepdog protecting the public, but rather a "Sheppard" protecting my own flock/family. To each his own.
    ~ Eternal Lives Matter ~
    "It Is Appointed Unto Man Once To Die And After This The Judgement"

  9. #48
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    South Carolina USA
    I have personally never liked the term "sheepdog".

    I watch out for myself, my family and anyone who happens to be with me. (If the "sheeple" around me benefit from my diligence, it doesn't make me a "sheepdog"; it just makes "them" fortunate.)

    I can't speak for others.
    But, I've been in enough bad situations to realize that I can become the focus of a BG very quickly; (even if it doesn't directly involve me at first).

    ANYONE within the "range" of a BGs ability to harm them, can be harmed and should act accordingly.

    IMHO; if any "weapon" wielding BG comes into an establishment (where I have a "right" to be) and threatens employees and/or patrons with death or severe bodily injury, it also is a "direct" threat to me as a patron.

    Now, if I happen to be in a position where a BG doesn't know I'm there, then it may not be a direct threat. (Unless the BG is recklessly firing of rounds)

    EVERY single SD circumstance has way to many variables. This fact should make the wise person realize, there is NO such thing as absolutes when it comes to self-defense situations.


    I would like to ask some people to "think" how they would feel if their families (maybe their children) were caught in circumstances like that in Norway.

    *Would you want a "legally" armed citizen to react?

    *What if your children were on a school outing; or your wife out with friends eating lunch and an armed attack occurred- Would you want anyone to step in?


    *Would you want a person who could "quickly" STOP the threat (to your family) just to leave the area, thinking only of themself?

    *Would you just "trust" the police enough to come to your family's rescue in time?

    Simple yes or no answers would be great.


  10. #49
    I have no problems with the sheepdog analogy other than how so many people want to use it as an excuse for carrying a gun. Some feel that when they put a gun on their belt it gives them some kind on new power and responsibility. I have the same responsibility to help my fellow man with or without my gun. I have the same responsibilities to the general public as if I carry a knife or baseball bat. The only thing that changes when you get a CCW/CWP/CHP... is that now you will not be charged for carrying in certain places and in certain ways as you would before. You are not deputized and have no more rights or responsibilities than anyone else if you have a gun. If you want to claim that you are a sheepdog and act as one then by all means do it but that gun on your side doesn't make you one. There are thousands of people that have been much more of a sheepdog without a gun than you will ever be with one. To put it simply, for someone to proclaim that they are now a sheepdog because they have a gun makes me want to puke. If you can't be one without a gun you can't be with a gun. I don't know that the sheepdog analogy is a myth but it doesn't have a dang thing to do with guns.

  11. #50
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Santa Fe Area, New Mexico
    And I would ADD that with that Sheepdog mentality, you're just found another way to get into trouble. DEADLY trouble.
    "The smallest minority on earth is the individual. Those who deny individual rights cannot claim to be defenders of minorities." --author and philosopher Ayn Rand (1905-1982)

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