Can We PA-leez Put the Sheep Dog Myth To Rest?
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Thread: Can We PA-leez Put the Sheep Dog Myth To Rest?

  1. #1
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    Can We PA-leez Put the Sheep Dog Myth To Rest?

    It seems like once a week or so someone shows up here proclaiming their sheep dog status and sometimes telling the rest of us what cowards we are for not buying into the “sheep dog” ethos. I’ve even read posts that proclaim that we (permit holders) have a duty “lay down our lives” in defense of “the sheep”. It was also stated that if your family is left behind in poverty because of your actions they should collect their welfare and feel honored that you died a “sheep dog”

    To be perfectly honest “sheep dogs” scare me, they strike me as the type of person that is carrying a gun just waiting for a chance to be “a hero”. It’s been my experience that people that want to be heroes tend to blow a situation out of proportion in their quest to fulfill the “sheep dog” role.

    Any time I carry a gun (which is all the time) I am incurring the risk of liability and I am accepting full responsibility for my actions. Why would I want to add to that risk by deliberately interjecting myself into a situation that has nothing to do with me? Also how am I fulfilling my responsibility to protect my family by adding to their risk (of losing their primary provider) by so doing?

    IMO anyone who grabs onto that title is looking for something outside themselves to add meaning to their life and (also IMO)they are looking in a very dangerous place

    Grossman’s “Sheep, Sheepdogs and Wolves” was mainly directed at professional soldiers and police officers it was never intended to be a Raison d'Ítre for concealed carry permit holders. It’s an analogy and like all analogies its flawed and you don’t have to take it too far to find the flaws.

    Sheep are herd animals that are kept not out of the benevolent goodness of their owner’s heart but because they produce goods that benefit the owner and only the owner. Where do you think the term getting “fleeced” came from? Unproductive sheep are killed.

    Sheepdogs are not part of the flock they are employed to impose the owner’s will on the sheep, by force if necessary. They guard the flock because it is of benefit to the owner and they have no qualms about herding the flock to a slaughterhouse if that is what the owner commands. Sheep dog is not an appellation I would care to have applied to me.

    It has been my experience that those, in the permit holder community, who seek the title of sheepdog, tend to be authoritarians who use it as a means of self aggrandizement. They tend to derive their feelings of self worth from the position of quasi authority they assume their permit gives them. This is, of course, my opinion but I have also seen posters on gun boards state that our status as permit holders makes us defacto auxiliary police officers. As such I believe the sheepdog mythology is very, very dangerous to the gun owning community and I speak against it at every opportunity.
    See, it's mumbo jumbo like that and skinny little lizards like you thinking they the last dragon that gives Kung Fu a bad name.
    http://www.gunrightsmedia.com/ Internet forum dedicated to second amendment

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  3. #2
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    sheep dogs...
    anyone who ever put on a uniform for the military, law enforcement, fire or EMS. Those are the true sheep dogs. Anything else is just so much keyboard commando rhetoric and possibly stolen valor.
    I served in the USAF for over 20 years...I am a sheep dog (retired).
    My oldest son is a Marine...he is a sheepdog in ways you will never know.
    My middle son is a fireman...more of a sheepdog than you can imagine.
    My youngest wants to join the Army and fly helicopters as soon as he graduates...(future sheepdog but has not earned the title yet).
    If you ever put on a uniform in service of your fellow man you are a sheepdog. If you have not you are only an armed individual...it is not up for discussion.
    FESTUS
    IN OMNIA PARATUS

  4. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by festus View Post
    If you ever put on a uniform in service of your fellow man you are a sheepdog. If you have not you are only an armed individual...it is not up for discussion.
    I wore my country's uniform for most of my adult life. I still refuse to be labled "sheep dog"
    See, it's mumbo jumbo like that and skinny little lizards like you thinking they the last dragon that gives Kung Fu a bad name.
    http://www.gunrightsmedia.com/ Internet forum dedicated to second amendment

  5. #4
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    Good post Treo! As just a regular citizen with a CCP I always viewed the sheepdog thing as a sort of correlation between me and the Second Amendment. Not between me and the rest of Society as some kind of self appointed Police Officer. By Appeals Court decisions the Police nor the Government has a responsibility or liability to protect the individual from harm.
    Taken in the colloquial and not the extreme given a choice most here would say that they are not sheep or wolves but sheepdogs. Just don't get carried away with yourself on that title. festus knows who really deserve the official title of Sheepdog!
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  6. Most Police do not want a civilian carrying a firearm, they feel they are the only ones who should have them. If you are attacked and are killed, that's just your hard luck.

  7. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by rifleshooter474 View Post
    Most Police do not want a civilian carrying a firearm, they feel they are the only ones who should have them. If you are attacked and are killed, that's just your hard luck.
    DUCK! Hey, are there any Duckdogs out there?
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  8. #7
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    Well said Treo. We may have our testy replies but I absolutely agree with what you say on this thread. I would add that I get "scared" sometimes by the "tone" and obvious intent of many threads and/or replies. Granted many of us become rather verbose and brave when sitting at a computer but some of the words used in this forum lead me to believe that we have some Dirty Harrys out there who just cannot wait to protect "truth, justice and the american way" ala superman. Even the idea that the term "sheep" seems to encompass everyone without a CCW is, IMO, reaching. It infers that the so-called "sheepdog" is literally akin to an LEO, which is far from true even if your opinion of LEOs is somewhat negative.
    The reply that LEOs all fall into the sheepdog category is a bit much, IMO. The procedures for obtaining a CCWP and a firearm are far from failsafe and if you are an LEO, you should be concerned that there are many out there who have no business CC--be it psychological, criminal etal.

  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by rifleshooter474 View Post
    Most Police do not want a civilian carrying a firearm, they feel they are the only ones who should have them. If you are attacked and are killed, that's just your hard luck.
    Police forget that they are private citizens authorized to investigate and make arrests based upon thier investigation. We need to go back to common law and throw out the Uniform Commercial Code that all states have adopted. It create's a misconception of what is lawful and what is not.

    20 CA 3d 1032; Mich. v. Duke, 266 US 576, 69, 449.)
    State police power extends only to immediate threats to public safety,
    health, and welfare.

    US Navy Veteran , and I am not a "Sheep Dog"!
    The Only Easy Day Was Yesterday

  10. #9
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    As former military, I carry only for my own and my familys protection, will dail 911 if I see you needing help.

  11. #10
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    It's actually quite refreshing to see someone post a more well thought out interpretation of the sheepdog mentality. I can see how some permit carriers might interpret themselves as a sheepdog, or self-appointed protector of society, but that mentality really needs to be put to rest.

    The society that self-appointed sheepdogs would choose to "protect" will not protect them against criminal or civil liabilities. Thank you Treo for pointing that out. Likely both of those liabilities, even if found innocent, will cost you in lawyer bills for the good part of the rest of your life. It would only be out of the goodness of a few hearts that donations might be taken up, but who here is digging into their pockets now? Even if you're a permit carrier, and you pull a gun out to save the life of another (we'll assume for the sake of discussion that the shooting is justified), the victim has no obligation to assist you financially in your defense.

    I had never considered the relationship of the sheep to the shepherd in this analogy; that the sheep is there for the benefit of the shepherd, and unproductive sheep are killed. Therefore, the sheepdog is basically more of a prison guard than a protector. Therefore, equating oneself to a sheepdog would be analagous to being a tool of oppression or intimidation. This is a great point I had not considered before.

    Bottom line, the sheepdog analogy is flawed. Thank you Treo for your discussion on this topic.

    On another note, I was not in the military (rejected for health reasons). I never served as LEO (never even got as far as an interview). I was a volunteer firefighter and EMT for four years. Then and now, I never considered myself a sheepdog, even when I was aware of the whole sheepdog interpretation.

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