When is it brandishing and when is it defense? - Page 11
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Thread: When is it brandishing and when is it defense?

  1. #101
    Quote Originally Posted by Axeanda45 View Post
    You would still have many grounds for suing the pants off them if they did arrest you on these false charges... Might actually help the cause if some brave souls decided it was time to challenge them....
    Sure. I could be the martyr. But would you mind putting up about $100,000 dollars or so, to cover my legal defense? Good attorneys up here aren't cheap, and I'll need a REAL good one to beat the charges. Then funds for a second one to file and pursue the civil suit.

    Oh, and by the way, if the charges DID stick...I also need to be concerned about the cost of child care for my son while I'm incarcerated.

    What, you won't put up $100k? How about $50k? Not even that?

    Ok. Then I guess I'll have to stick to my current strategy of donating to GOAL and NRA, while relentlessly lobbying my legislators, and trying to convince others to do the same.
    S&W M&P 45; Ruger GP100 .357 Magnum; Charter Arms .38 Undercover
    http://www.usacarry.com/forums/members/phillip-gain-albums-phil-s-photos-picture3828-reciprocity-map-29jun11.JPG

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  3. #102
    Just so everyone is aware, I have added "Axeanda45" to my block list. Upon further consideration, and after reading the latest ******-stirring thread he started...I've decided that he is not worth the effort to engage in discussion.

    There is nothing wrong with asking difficult or controversial questions. There is nothing wrong, either, with disagreeing with someone. Even when it's someone who has the ultra-sexy-cool-purple instructor tab. :) But there's a point when someone is asking / disagreeing, just for the sake of getting an argument going, and I feel that Axeanda45 is one who consistently goes past that point.
    S&W M&P 45; Ruger GP100 .357 Magnum; Charter Arms .38 Undercover
    http://www.usacarry.com/forums/members/phillip-gain-albums-phil-s-photos-picture3828-reciprocity-map-29jun11.JPG

  4. #103
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
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    OHIO
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    Oh, I am sooo hurt by your refusing to continue to have a conversation... Whahhhh, did you remember to take your ball home with you?


    I do NOT argue for the sake of arguing, I simply refuse to let things go.... If I let those things go, it means they were correct. Sorry, not gonna happen, I refuse to be silent when others are spreading lies... If that means I end up with no-one ever reading my posts because I am on everyones ignore list, so be it.... At least my conscience will be clear.

    Someone has to stand up for what is right, even if all it does is piss people off. (which has never been my intention)

  5. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by Phillip Gain View Post
    Just so everyone is aware, I have added "Axeanda45" to my block list. Upon further consideration, and after reading the latest ******-stirring thread he started...I've decided that he is not worth the effort to engage in discussion.

    There is nothing wrong with asking difficult or controversial questions. There is nothing wrong, either, with disagreeing with someone. Even when it's someone who has the ultra-sexy-cool-purple instructor tab. :) But there's a point when someone is asking / disagreeing, just for the sake of getting an argument going, and I feel that Axeanda45 is one who consistently goes past that point.
    He is on my block list as well. Like I said earlier, he attacks people rather than ideas, so I do not read his posts any longer.

  6. #105
    Join Date
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    OHIO
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deserteagle View Post
    He is on my block list as well. Like I said earlier, he attacks people rather than ideas, so I do not read his posts any longer.
    Wow, this coming from the exact one who insists that you have to murder a fleeing bad guy or you are brandishing.....

  7. #106
    Eleanor Roosevelt would be proud of you, DesertEagle. She once said, "Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people."
    S&W M&P 45; Ruger GP100 .357 Magnum; Charter Arms .38 Undercover
    http://www.usacarry.com/forums/members/phillip-gain-albums-phil-s-photos-picture3828-reciprocity-map-29jun11.JPG

  8. I know of two cases very close to the same act. One was ok! one was not.
    A guy went in to the bathroom in a Mcdonalds. Inside the bathroom two bad looking men were just standing with their back leaning on a wall. The Bad looking men looked at the person coming in and then, looked at each other. They stood up off the wall. The Guy walked over to the sink and the two bad looking men started walking up to him and one to each side. the man turn around and backed up to the wall as his path to the door was blocked by the two advancing men. They were looking at him and still moving forward. The man had a ccw and his gun was on his right side under his coat. The man reached back and grabbed his gun but did not pull it out. TO BE READY. He put his left hand out and said "What do you want? one of the bad looking men asked "You got any money we can have?" sticking his hand out for the money. The man said "No sorry" the two men looked at each other and stood still for a sec and then walked out. The man walked out of the bathroom and called police. The bad guys called the police too. When the police got there They heard both sides of the story. They asked to see the ccw permitt and took the man's gun till they could determine what they were going to do. A sgt arrived and he too got in the act. after all 3 were checked for warrants and history No charges were made the gun was given back and the man went on his way. True story.
    Second case. A man go's to a car wash to wash his truck. he starts washing his truck. Two bad looking men come up two him and spread apart and come at him from both sides. he see them. ( he has a ccw permitt
    He has a gun it's in his pants on the left side front.) He grabbed his gun and pulled it out and put it down by his side. The two men see it and stop and back up and walk away. ( They called the police The man did not.) The police arrive and at gun point order the man to put his hand on his car and not to move. they search him find his gun and take it. he shows his ccw permitt. he is arrested and charged with (brandishing)
    all were ran for warrants and history. the two bad looking men said they were asking for money for a local basketball team uniforms. They had a paper flyer they were handing out.
    The man was found guilty and lost his gun his ccw permitt and got finded $1500.00 dollars.
    I saw one of the bad looking men a few months later get arrested for strong arm robbery. Life is a *****.

  9. #108
    Quote Originally Posted by whitetiger View Post
    I know of two cases very close to the same act. One was ok! one was not.
    A guy went in to the bathroom in a Mcdonalds. Inside the bathroom two bad looking men were just standing with their back leaning on a wall. The Bad looking men looked at the person coming in and then, looked at each other. They stood up off the wall. The Guy walked over to the sink and the two bad looking men started walking up to him and one to each side. the man turn around and backed up to the wall as his path to the door was blocked by the two advancing men. They were looking at him and still moving forward. The man had a ccw and his gun was on his right side under his coat. The man reached back and grabbed his gun but did not pull it out. TO BE READY. He put his left hand out and said "What do you want? one of the bad looking men asked "You got any money we can have?" sticking his hand out for the money. The man said "No sorry" the two men looked at each other and stood still for a sec and then walked out. The man walked out of the bathroom and called police. The bad guys called the police too. When the police got there They heard both sides of the story. They asked to see the ccw permitt and took the man's gun till they could determine what they were going to do. A sgt arrived and he too got in the act. after all 3 were checked for warrants and history No charges were made the gun was given back and the man went on his way. True story.
    Second case. A man go's to a car wash to wash his truck. he starts washing his truck. Two bad looking men come up two him and spread apart and come at him from both sides. he see them. ( he has a ccw permitt
    He has a gun it's in his pants on the left side front.) He grabbed his gun and pulled it out and put it down by his side. The two men see it and stop and back up and walk away. ( They called the police The man did not.) The police arrive and at gun point order the man to put his hand on his car and not to move. they search him find his gun and take it. he shows his ccw permitt. he is arrested and charged with (brandishing)
    all were ran for warrants and history. the two bad looking men said they were asking for money for a local basketball team uniforms. They had a paper flyer they were handing out.
    The man was found guilty and lost his gun his ccw permitt and got finded $1500.00 dollars.
    I saw one of the bad looking men a few months later get arrested for strong arm robbery. Life is a *****.
    Interesting stories, but how did the bad guys in the first case know he had a gun if he never pulled it out?
    In my opinion, it was not appropriate for the CCW holders in either scenario to pull out or grab their guns just because people look sketchy. Telling a jury you brandished your gun because people looked like they were lower class, looked weird, etc. will not be a valid argument. Also, there is no rule against hanging out in a bathroom or walking up to somebody at a car wash . If the guy in the first scenario honestly thought the people in the bathroom looked dangerous, then he should have turned around and walked out.

  10. #109
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Southwestern, MI
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deserteagle View Post
    Think about it this way: Keep your gun in your holster until your only option to stay alive is to shoot to stop the threat. If you can scare somebody away in the half second it takes between drawing and firing, then you probably were not justified at all because they must not have been that much of a threat if they could be stopped just like that. Your gun is for stopping threats that will stop at nothing but a bullet.
    I do see your point, the main difference I have is that you should always be in control of the shot. Things happen quickly and I don't believe that you should have a habit of drawing and firing automatically. Also, you can't say that you weren't justified in drawing your weapon because he stopped. None of us are mind readers and can only judge by what we see at the time and not by hindsight.

  11. #110

    Utah instructor's response

    Let me first say that Phillip Gain is spot on with his explanation. While some want to question the term "use of deadly force" for brandishing a weapon when not justified, be sure that a charge of "threatening" with a deadly weapon will most likely be among the charges.

    The best thing that any one can do to make sure they are in compliance with the law is to find out what the definition is in the state where you are. Go to the state's website and find the answer. Many states have a section of Frequently Asked Questions that give clarifying answers.

    This is the answer for Utah as found on the Utah Bureau of Criminal Identification website on the Frequently Asked Questions page:

    "If I feel someone MAY be a threat to me, can I show them that I have a gun to scare them off?

    "Any action you take with a gun must be in direct self-defense; otherwise, it may be considered threatening with a dangerous weapon and you could be labeled as the aggressor. You may be criminally charged and you will possibly have your permit to carry a concealed firearm revoked. Carrying a firearm is very serious business. There is no room for mistakes. If you pull a firearm on someone or even display the weapon, then it must be in self defense or it is not justified."

    The definition of justification to use deadly force is to be threatened with death or serious bodily injury. IF YOU ARE NOT JUSTIFIED IN USING FORCE, YOU ARE NOT JUSTIFIED IN SHOWING FORCE. If it is concealed you may not expose it. If it is in plain sight you may not touch it, or unholster.

    As to the question of giving a verbal warning, you have to be careful to not do so in a way where you may be charged with making a threat. I tell my students that I would say, "I am prepared to defend myself, and if threatened will do so." I am not disclosing if I have a gun, knife, pepper spray, baton, or a black belt. I have prefaced it with I will respond to a threat (which is justified), and therefore not the aggressor.

    One last thought on an issue already mentioned in other posts:

    If you are justified to displayed your weapon and the threat stops - Great! You may not shoot the person once the threat stops. Call the police! Inform the dispatcher on the phone why you displayed your weapon, what is the current status of the situation and your weapon, and follow their instructions.

    The biggest thing is to know the law and definition where you will carry. This is Utah law I have addressed as it was taught in my instructor course, in the training curriculum provided by the state, and as explained on their website. That is all I am certified to speak on.

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