When is it brandishing and when is it defense? - Page 12
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Thread: When is it brandishing and when is it defense?

  1. All I can add is if you do pull your firearm even if you do not fire it, without witness to back you up as to why you are now holding the fire arm if the person that has caused you to take this action. If they make a complaint to the police and even if they do not arrest you at this time.
    The D.A. if they wish can charge you with pointing a weapon at a person, and then your life will become a living hell.
    Trust me on this as it has happened to me.

  2.   
  3. #112
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    My concept of brandishing is exposing your weapon for no particular reason. Like throwing your pistol on the dashboard while you're drive downtown just so you don't have any 'trouble'.
    Actually, some places require you to keep your firearm in plain sight while in your car. So, placing it on the dash before you go downtown may be fine.

    Just be sure and check your local & state laws.

  4. #113
    Quote Originally Posted by olsparky View Post
    Let me first say that Phillip Gain is spot on with his explanation. While some want to question the term "use of deadly force" for brandishing a weapon when not justified, be sure that a charge of "threatening" with a deadly weapon will most likely be among the charges.

    The best thing that any one can do to make sure they are in compliance with the law is to find out what the definition is in the state where you are. Go to the state's website and find the answer. Many states have a section of Frequently Asked Questions that give clarifying answers.

    This is the answer for Utah as found on the Utah Bureau of Criminal Identification website on the Frequently Asked Questions page:

    "If I feel someone MAY be a threat to me, can I show them that I have a gun to scare them off?

    "Any action you take with a gun must be in direct self-defense; otherwise, it may be considered threatening with a dangerous weapon and you could be labeled as the aggressor. You may be criminally charged and you will possibly have your permit to carry a concealed firearm revoked. Carrying a firearm is very serious business. There is no room for mistakes. If you pull a firearm on someone or even display the weapon, then it must be in self defense or it is not justified."

    The definition of justification to use deadly force is to be threatened with death or serious bodily injury. IF YOU ARE NOT JUSTIFIED IN USING FORCE, YOU ARE NOT JUSTIFIED IN SHOWING FORCE. If it is concealed you may not expose it. If it is in plain sight you may not touch it, or unholster.

    As to the question of giving a verbal warning, you have to be careful to not do so in a way where you may be charged with making a threat. I tell my students that I would say, "I am prepared to defend myself, and if threatened will do so." I am not disclosing if I have a gun, knife, pepper spray, baton, or a black belt. I have prefaced it with I will respond to a threat (which is justified), and therefore not the aggressor.

    One last thought on an issue already mentioned in other posts:

    If you are justified to displayed your weapon and the threat stops - Great! You may not shoot the person once the threat stops. Call the police! Inform the dispatcher on the phone why you displayed your weapon, what is the current status of the situation and your weapon, and follow their instructions.

    The biggest thing is to know the law and definition where you will carry. This is Utah law I have addressed as it was taught in my instructor course, in the training curriculum provided by the state, and as explained on their website. That is all I am certified to speak on.
    Thanks for the vote of confidence. :) And for the additional clarification as well. "If you are not justified in using force then you are not justified in showing force" hits it right on the head.

    The only place where we differ is in the verbal warning. I think the one you're teaching your students is wordy, and will come out garbled if it comes out at all. And it's long enough to cost them precious seconds if they're trying to remember whether to draw or speak etc.

    I'd prefer something simpler like "STOP!" or "BACK OFF!" or "YOU'RE SCARING ME!" It puts the aggressor on notice...but more importantly it provides a nice easy-to-remember quote for any witnesses in earshot.
    S&W M&P 45; Ruger GP100 .357 Magnum; Charter Arms .38 Undercover
    http://www.usacarry.com/forums/members/phillip-gain-albums-phil-s-photos-picture3828-reciprocity-map-29jun11.JPG

  5. #114
    Quote Originally Posted by BC1 View Post
    I get real tired of defening this position but you are dead wrong. I've been doing permit services for years. Over 1,700 approvals and one denial. Now in TX you must renew, right? Remember the Lubie's incident? Not in NY. No renewals... good for life. No restrictions on bars, restuarants, public transportation, hospitals, churclh's and all the other places prohibited in "gun friendly" states. Stop assuming you have knowledge of NY.
    1,700 approvals is not exactly a lot, is it? It's nice for the few people that can actually get a permit that there are few restrictions, I suppose.

  6. #115
    It all depends on the state, county, city it occurs and what is all involved in the incident. U threw out a loaded question for us to answer.


    Noun 1. brandish - the act of waving
    flourish
    wafture, waving, wave - the act of signaling by a movement of the hand
    Verb 1. brandish - move or swing back and forth; "She waved her gun"
    wave, flourish
    wigwag - send a signal by waving a flag or a light according to a certain code
    move, displace
    2. brandish - exhibit aggressively; "brandish a sword"
    display, exhibit, expose - to show, make visible or apparent;

  7. You are an inspiration and an obviously educated "carrying citizen"
    It was information similar in content during my CCW class in Arizona that caused me to get my head straight and get informed about legal clarifications and the ramifications that will be encountered should I become involved in a defensive shooting incident. I intend to be my own personal protector out on the street but in court I will seek the best expert advice of an attorney experienced in successful "law enforcement" defense cases.

  8. Quote Originally Posted by Billy Bob 753 View Post
    You are an inspiration and an obviously educated "carrying citizen"
    It was information similar in content during my CCW class in Arizona that caused me to get my head straight and get informed about legal clarifications and the ramifications that will be encountered should I become involved in a defensive shooting incident. I intend to be my own personal protector out on the street but in court I will seek the best expert advice of an attorney experienced in successful "law enforcement" defense cases.
    When the DA files a charge against you the only person who can speak for you is your Attorney, you do no speaking in Court until it reach's the trial stage. Then you just answer questions asked of you in Court.

  9. #118
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    Wait until you are at gunpoint by BG's gun or knife is at your neck or you have been struck prior to responding. That should work.

  10. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by Axeanda45 View Post
    Again, this is 100% bullcrap....

    People have died from being hit with a fist, so by your false statement, we would have to be charged with "introducing deadly force" for balling up our fist...

    Deadly force is introduced ONLY WHEN a firearm has been discharged, (even if the bullet doesnt hit anyone) NOT the moment it comes out of a holster........
    By definition deadly force has been introduced the moment one is presented with an immiment threat of severe bodily harm, with or without a weapon involved. This occurs the very moment someone draws a gun or even approaches with a knife drawn. For illustration purposes, NYS Penal Law Article 35 allows for the immediate use of deadly physical force the very moment someone produces any weapon, threatens a severe beating or produces a gun, whether or not a shot is discharged. Deadly physical force may be used to stop the imminent use of force of such magnitude that permanent or serious physical injury will likely occur. In NYS (as many others) deadly force may be used to stop a burglary, kidnapping, forceable criminal sexual act, assault or arson of real property. The use of deadly force will be governed under the law by the standard of the reasonable person. Not what the bravest, smartest, dumbest or most cowardly person might do, but what the average person would do given the situation and knowledge at hand. Many times the law favors the defender based on the level of fear s/he felt. This is a "sliding" definition. For example, a 50-year-old man with a cardiac condition may use deadly force to stop an assault sooner than a healthy 50-year-old. A woman may use it before a man. The elderly may use it before a young person. A person who is the initial aggressor or escalates the confrontation will lose justification of defense under the law.

    If approached by an assailant intent on harming you, drawing a gun will not be considered brandishing if the other presents a grave imminent threat. Anytime one draws a weapon they must also call 911 to ensure there are no misunderstandings regarding nthe circumstances. Everyone needs to understand that a firearm is used nearly 2.5 million times per year to STOP an imminent attack. A shot is fired in only 8% of those incidents yet we don't see millions of arrests for brandishing the weapon.

    SOURCES
    Targeting Guns: Firearms and Their Control, Gary Kleck, Aldine de Gruyter, 1997.
    Uniform Crime Statistics, 1972 to 1995.
    National Crime Victimization Survey, 2000.
    NYS Criminal Law Handbook - NYS Penal Law A35.

    This is an extremely complicated issue and there is no absolute rule on this. All parties are somewhat correct in their posts depending on circumstances. This is why the proper response in a hypothetical situation is hard to determine. The answer is always "it depends."
    GOD, GUNS and GUITARS

  11. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by jg1967 View Post
    1,700 approvals is not exactly a lot, is it? It's nice for the few people that can actually get a permit that there are few restrictions, I suppose.
    That's 1,700 approvals and one denial by ME alone in three counties! In NY everyone gets a permit unless there is a glaring reason to deny. My most recent approval was a guy with two counts of assault and one for aggravated harrassment. Both charges wre ACD'd so he gets his permit. Stop drinking the cool-aid. Everyone gets on this NY bandwagon without any first-hand experience/knowledge of the state. Everyone says it so it must be true? Crapola! The denial exists in every state, even shall-issue states.
    GOD, GUNS and GUITARS

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