When is it brandishing and when is it defense? - Page 6
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Thread: When is it brandishing and when is it defense?

  1. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by dumb okie View Post
    I think we need an instructor to weigh in on this one. I know the first class i had to take to get my permit and every refresher course since we are told to draw when we feel there is no other option and yell "STOP! DONT MAKE ME SHOOT YOU" or something along those lines and if the bg stops his advance you holster and call the police first just in case the bg trys to call on you or a bystander calls the police the dispatcher knows your side of the story
    I'm an instructor.

    The "verbal command" is the topic of much discussion. Any lawyer (and many instructors) will say to do it, that you're more covered in case you end up on trial. Here are my thoughts:

    In a situation involving self-defense INSIDE the home, you are more likely to have time to give a verbal warning. You are most likely to encounter an unarmed or lightly armed thief, and in this situation you may even have the option of commanding him to stop, holding him at gunpoint until the police arrive, etc.

    In a situation involving self-defense OUTSIDE the home, it is much less likely that you will have time to give a verbal warning. A likely scenario is that you are surprised by an armed mugger, carjacker, etc, and will have to act quickly to save your own life or the life of your loved ones. When fractions of seconds count, you want to be "shooting to stop" not "shouting to stop."

    But yes, you want to notify police ANY TIME you have to draw your firearm in a confrontation. Remember, drawing a firearm in a confrontation constitutes a use of deadly force regardless of whether it is fired, and regardless of whether injury or death is inflicted.

    In most jurisdictions, the coursework required to obtain a concealed carry permit is (or is the equivalent of) NRA Basic Firearm Safety and/or NRA Basic Pistol. I STRONGLY RECOMMEND that anyone who carries advance their training with at least NRA Personal Protection in the Home AND NRA Personal Protection Outside the Home. This and other important issues are discussed and covered in much greater detail.
    S&W M&P 45; Ruger GP100 .357 Magnum; Charter Arms .38 Undercover
    http://www.usacarry.com/forums/members/phillip-gain-albums-phil-s-photos-picture3828-reciprocity-map-29jun11.JPG

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  3. #52
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    Axeanda45, very well put in both posts. That is exactly what I meant, unfortunately I guess I didn't elaborate every little detail of my situation so that it was easy for everyone to understand. I think brandishing would be determined by the ensuing situation. But I will say no more, some people can't seem to understand without micro details.

  4. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phillip Gain View Post
    In a situation involving self-defense INSIDE the home, you are more likely to have time to give a verbal warning. You are most likely to encounter an unarmed or lightly armed thief, and in this situation you may even have the option of commanding him to stop, holding him at gunpoint until the police arrive, etc.
    True. Of course in states with a castle doctrine (like mine), a verbal warning in your home is purely optional....only if you're feeling generous.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phillip Gain View Post
    In a situation involving self-defense OUTSIDE the home, it is much less likely that you will have time to give a verbal warning. A likely scenario is that you are surprised by an armed mugger, carjacker, etc, and will have to act quickly to save your own life or the life of your loved ones. When fractions of seconds count, you want to be "shooting to stop" not "shouting to stop."
    Obviously a verbal warning is only realistic in an escalating situation....an argument, road rage, etc. that's gone too far. Since this thread is about brandishing, I think that escalation is a given in these scenarios since if someone was under direct attack it would be difficult to accuse them of brandishing if they drew a weapon.
    (Insert random tough-guy quote here)
    "See my gun?? Aren't you impressed?" - Anonymous sheepdog
    The hardware is the same, but the software is vastly different.

  5. #54
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    Great thread. I read thru most if not all the replies and particularly agreed with comments made by Walt and B2. Walt's reply #46 where he quotes B2, IMO, hit the nail on the head. All this is easier said and written about than being in the middle of something that is as dynamic as a confrontation one step away from your "presumption of imminent danger of death or great bodily injury". In SC, that last quoted statement is the be all and end all for the use of the firearm where the use of same is preceded by the presentation of the firearm. That does not mean that there is not an extremely small moment between presenting and firing the firearm that can result in the retreat of the antagonist resulting in the best resolution of the entire situation. IMO, anything else, in the context of CC is illegal.

  6. #55
    Phillip, you have it NAILED! I am in total agreement. GOOD Job!
    Be Safe,
    Jim
    Owner, Self Defense CWP

  7. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by walt629 View Post
    Solid answer with explanation too. Thanks.
    I second that. A lot of people think they will be able to ward off danger just by waving a gun around ... it might work on some weaker willed attackers but if you're not ready to use it before they shoot you ...

  8. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by jg1967:238172
    Quote Originally Posted by walt629 View Post
    Solid answer with explanation too. Thanks.
    I second that. A lot of people think they will be able to ward off danger just by waving a gun around ... it might work on some weaker willed attackers but if you're not ready to use it before they shoot you ...
    It's not "waving the gun around." That WOULD be brandishing, and anyone who does that deserves what they get in court. It's called drawing or presenting your weapon. I doubt that even the Colorado LE agencies would have trouble seeing the distinction, especially after questioning witnesses.

    So IF you ever present your weapon, you most assuredly should do so deliberately and proficiency, in a manner intended to let your attacker and everyone else see that you have a weapon, and that you sure as hell look like you are capable and well-trained in its use. God willing, this simple but explosive presentation will stop the attack, which is why you MUST not train to fire every time you draw! If you train this way, you will fight this way. Present to a ready position if you feel you have time, and shout a simple warning, like "Stop or ill shoot!" This immediately tells everyone around you (witnesses) that you're the victim, and BG is the BG! (Important!)

    If you don't have time for a warning, present to the attacker who poses the greatest threat, and make your shot(s). But either way, keep evaluating the situation all the way up to the trigger break, because not firing and letting the bad guy retreat really is the best possible outcome.

    Personally, my hope is that the most I will ever have to do is to call the sheriff and report that in the midst of an attack I presented my weapon to a ready position, and the attacker fled. And by the way, here's his description...

  9. #58
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    Most BG's are ambush hunters, and you will have little or no warning, always be aware of your surroundings, and avoid the issue in the first place if possible, flash mob different situation as they consider power in numbers, I always have phone ready with speed dial, Texas is concealed carry if threat is great enough for me to pull my weapon and phone, you have received all the warning you are going to get once you are looking down the barrel, only verbal will be with 911 operator who will be hearing my commands to get on the ground or leave.

  10. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare45:238186
    Most BG's are ambush hunters, and you will have little or no warning, always be aware of your surroundings, and avoid the issue in the first place if possible, flash mob different situation as they consider power in numbers, I always have phone ready with speed dial, Texas is concealed carry if threat is great enough for me to pull my weapon and phone, you have received all the warning you are going to get once you are looking down the barrel, only verbal will be with 911 operator who will be hearing my commands to get on the ground or leave.
    Well, as long as you're a combat psychic, why don't you just avoid the scene of the crime altogether?

  11. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare45 View Post
    Most BG's are ambush hunters, and you will have little or no warning, always be aware of your surroundings, and avoid the issue in the first place if possible, flash mob different situation as they consider power in numbers, I always have phone ready with speed dial, Texas is concealed carry if threat is great enough for me to pull my weapon and phone, you have received all the warning you are going to get once you are looking down the barrel, only verbal will be with 911 operator who will be hearing my commands to get on the ground or leave.
    Not all threats are planned ambushes. Road-ragers, people under the influence, the guy who thinks you looked at him the wrong way, etc. etc. I think the theme of this thread is the potential or escalating threat and the fine line between brandishing and legit self-defense.

    What you're talking about is beyond the scope of this thread....when the potential danger has become a reality. You're right, however, in that warnings and such are pretty useless at that point.
    (Insert random tough-guy quote here)
    "See my gun?? Aren't you impressed?" - Anonymous sheepdog
    The hardware is the same, but the software is vastly different.

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