When is it brandishing and when is it defense? - Page 8
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Thread: When is it brandishing and when is it defense?

  1. #71
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    Hey Tuts:I am sorry if my comments led you to critcize my reply. I certainly do not mean that everytime something bad happens to people, it is their fault. I stand by my statement though-- I said that there is a "good chance" that if you do not pay attention, you can be a victim--that still holds and does not mean that if you are the victim of say a Ft Hood terrorist it is your fault. C'mon--walk out in a dark parking lot with your wife holding her bag wide open--waddayathink might happen?

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  3. #72
    Earlier in the discussion I said:

    Quote Originally Posted by Phillip Gain View Post
    Think of it like this.

    As soon as that firearm comes out of the holster, you are using deadly force, whether or not you fire it.

    The use of deadly force is justified only when you REASONABLY BELIEVE your life or safety is in imminent danger. (And in some jurisdictions, you have a duty to retreat.) It is also justified when you FACTUALLY KNOW the life or safety of someone else is in imminent danger and you choose to intervene.

    (Side note: It is important to understand that the "reasonable person" standard applies to self-defense...whereas "facts in evidence" apply when defending another. It's a big difference.)

    If you draw your firearm in a confrontation when neither of the above circumstances is present, you are brandishing.
    There's been a lot of discussion about this. So maybe I should clarify the point a little further.

    I'm not talking about unholstering at your friend's BBQ for some "show and tell." I'm not talking about printing or inadvertently "flashing" your firearm while reaching for the oatmeal on the top shelf at your grocery store. And I'm not talking about open carry.

    I'm specifically talking about when you are carrying concealed, and find yourself in a confrontation of any sort. WHEN YOU PULL YOUR FIREARM FROM ITS HOLSTER (OR OTHERWISE REVEAL IT), YOU HAVE INTRODUCED DEADLY FORCE INTO THE EQUATION IF IT WAS NOT IN PLAY ALREADY. Once you do so...courts WILL hold you responsible for doing so, if it is determined that you were not justified. And the only surefire justification for bringing deadly force to bear is that you reasonably believed your life was in danger, or you factually knew that the life of someone else was in danger.

    There really isn't a lot of grey area here. But there IS some, since laws vary from state to state, and since prosecutorial zeal also varies. If you want a more in-depth discussion on this, then I strongly recommend that you spend a couple hundred bucks and consult with an attorney in your area. It is also a good idea to take the two NRA Personal Protection courses. Each has a section on Deadly Force and the Law that can be taught only by an attorney or someone specifically trained in teaching that section.

    It also needs to be noted that charges such as "menacing" or "brandishing" are SUBJECTIVE rather than OBJECTIVE. The key element is that the victim of the crime was feeling fear for his or her life and/or safety. This is the piece that varies so widely.

    For example, in West Virginia where I grew up, it was pretty common for someone to walk around armed - perhaps with a pistol or knife on his belt, or maybe with a long gun in a rack in his pickup. No one was afraid.

    However, here in Massachusetts, if I were to walk into Wal-Mart with my .357 carried openly at my side, there is a good chance that the police would be called and I'd be charged with multiple counts of brandishing, menacing, disturbing the peace, etc, because I scared the crap out of 20 people between the entry door and the sporting goods counter. (Never mind the fact that there are no laws in Mass that specifically prohibit the open carry of a loaded firearm.)

    So when is it brandishing? When you cause someone to feel fear at the sight of your firearm.

    When is it justified? When you reasonably believe your life or safety is in danger, or when you factually know that the life or safety of someone else is in danger.
    S&W M&P 45; Ruger GP100 .357 Magnum; Charter Arms .38 Undercover
    http://www.usacarry.com/forums/members/phillip-gain-albums-phil-s-photos-picture3828-reciprocity-map-29jun11.JPG

  4. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare45 View Post
    That was my point almost impossible to get cc in NY and CA. If you have CC in NY or CA congrats.
    I get real tired of defening this position but you are dead wrong. I've been doing permit services for years. Over 1,700 approvals and one denial. Now in TX you must renew, right? Remember the Lubie's incident? Not in NY. No renewals... good for life. No restrictions on bars, restuarants, public transportation, hospitals, churclh's and all the other places prohibited in "gun friendly" states. Stop assuming you have knowledge of NY.
    GOD, GUNS and GUITARS

  5. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by BC1 View Post
    I get real tired of defening this position but you are dead wrong. I've been doing permit services for years. Over 1,700 approvals and one denial. Now in TX you must renew, right? Remember the Lubie's incident? Not in NY. No renewals... good for life. No restrictions on bars, restuarants, public transportation, hospitals, churclh's and all the other places prohibited in "gun friendly" states. Stop assuming you have knowledge of NY.
    Just don't go into NYC. By the way, when is Bloomberg going to be picked up for strawman purchases?

  6. #75
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    This is a question that I have thought about quite a bit. The part about calling the police first is an important one. I worked with a man who got angry at another driver and threw a quarter at his car. The driver called the cops and said they had been shot at. The man throwing the quarter ended up spread eagle by the police wanting to know where the gun was. He wasn't carrying but was charged for throwing the quarter. Scary to think what would have happened if he had been armed, it would have been a lot messier I'm sure. I've read where people "scare" drivers off by showing them their gun, but that certainly could have consequences. My personal opinion would be to immediately call the cops and inform them that you were threatened and felt the need to "brandish" your weapon against 'Road Rage.' At least they would get your side of the story before they stopped you.

  7. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deserteagle View Post
    Brandishing is illegal. The only time you point your gun at somebody is when you are pulling the trigger. The only time you are pulling the trigger is when you have no other options and are legally justified in doing so.
    The only problem I have with this statement is; if you pull your gun because your life is in danger and the bad guy drops his weapon because you've pointed your gun at him, are you still obligated to pull the trigger since you've pointed your gun at him? The last part about pulling the trigger when you have no other options makes sense.

  8. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by 50SR9 View Post
    Well, how about just saying, "Stop, I feel that my safety is in danger. I do have a weapon and will use it." Finish that with what ever you wish to finish it with. Not brandishing, but letting the individual(s) know that you are armed and will shoot. How does that fit? Don't know that I would actually handle it that way, but that could be a way to approach the situation.
    That would depend on the situation. Common teaching is that an attacker can cover 7 yards as fast as you can aim and fire your weapon. How long does it take to say "Stop, I feel.....use it." Some situations may warrant that but others may have you on the ground suffering a knife wound before you had the second or third word out.

  9. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by walt629 View Post
    You see. You didn't read what I said. According to your statement exposing the weapon in any circumstance that does not result in someone getting shot is brandishing.

    I guess the answer is going to be a result of where you live.
    To actually put it to the legal test, this is the FL law:
    790.10 Improper exhibition of dangerous weapons or firearms.—If any person having or carrying any dirk, sword, sword cane, firearm, electric weapon or device, or other weapon shall, in the presence of one or more persons, exhibit the same in a rude, careless, angry, or threatening manner, not in necessary self-defense, the person so offending shall be guilty of a misdemeanor of the first degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082 or s. 775.083.
    There has to be an imminent threat for it to be necessary self-defense.

  10. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phillip Gain View Post
    Earlier in the discussion I said:



    . WHEN YOU PULL YOUR FIREARM FROM ITS HOLSTER (OR OTHERWISE REVEAL IT), YOU HAVE INTRODUCED DEADLY FORCE INTO THE EQUATION IF IT WAS NOT IN PLAY ALREADY.
    Again, this is 100% bullcrap....

    People have died from being hit with a fist, so by your false statement, we would have to be charged with "introducing deadly force" for balling up our fist...

    Deadly force is introduced ONLY WHEN a firearm has been discharged, (even if the bullet doesnt hit anyone) NOT the moment it comes out of a holster........

  11. #80
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    Hey Gain: Contrary to what Axe said, I agree completely with you. FYI Axe---"introducing deadly force into the equation", if you weren't so hell bent on making everyone's life as combative as your own, is understandable for what it says, which apparently is beyond your ability to understand.

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