When is it brandishing and when is it defense? - Page 9
Page 9 of 14 FirstFirst ... 7891011 ... LastLast
Results 81 to 90 of 139

Thread: When is it brandishing and when is it defense?

  1. #81
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    OHIO
    Posts
    2,109
    Quote Originally Posted by Phillip Gain View Post
    However, here in Massachusetts, if I were to walk into Wal-Mart with my .357 carried openly at my side, there is a good chance that the police would be called and I'd be charged with multiple counts of brandishing, menacing, disturbing the peace, etc, because I scared the crap out of 20 people between the entry door and the sporting goods counter. (Never mind the fact that there are no laws in Mass that specifically prohibit the open carry of a loaded firearm.)

    So when is it brandishing? When you cause someone to feel fear at the sight of your firearm.
    OMG... I missed this part in my prior post.... Wow, where to start... This is SOOOOO wrong on so many levels, it is outright fantasy, and you call yourself an INSTRUCTOR?????????

    We have (well, it is so watered down to be nearly non-existent, but the writing is still there) the 2nd Amendment Right to be armed... Please, mr enlightened Instructor, the keeper of all knowledge, WHERE in the Constitution or BOR it says we have a "Right" to not be afraid??????

    My goodness, if the cops charged you like you said they would , You would have a MAJOR lawsuit and make lots of money if you got a good lawyer......

  2.   
  3. #82
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    OHIO
    Posts
    2,109
    Quote Originally Posted by kelcarry View Post
    Hey Gain: Contrary to what Axe said, I agree completely with you. FYI Axe---"introducing deadly force into the equation", if you weren't so hell bent on making everyone's life as combative as your own, is understandable for what it says, which apparently is beyond your ability to understand.
    Combative? Since when is not allowing someone else to get away with lying being "combative"? I take a stand for the truth, not gossip or hearsay.... As those from Missouri (where I have lived in the past) say.... SHOW ME!

    I understand quite well a lie when I see one... IF you have ACTUAL PROOF that I am wrong, bring it...... Otherwise, go away...


    I have no problem being PROVEN wrong, (because I dont like to be wrong, and relish knowing the truth) I DO HOWEVER, have a big problem with lies.... ESPECIALLY in a forum like this one, where the wrong advice may get someone killed if they follow it (in some instances, not saying this is one of those).

  4. #83
    I see alot of posters refer to road rage as not a deadly enough situation to display or use your firearm. So, when I am on one of my old junky motorcycles barely able to do the back road speed limit of 55 and some idiot decides to attempt to run me off the road because he is in a big hurry and then returns to attempt to do it again, is that not assault with a deadly weapon?? Believe it or not it has happened more than a handful of times. Went down once and they laughed as they rode away. Luckily I have survived.

  5. #84
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Houston Metro Area, Texas
    Posts
    3,004
    kelcarry, Thought we were talking about brandishing, I very clearly stated avoid the situation in the first place this denotes being aware of your surroundings. Road rage, unless you are pulling a gun on me in that confrontation there is no reason for me to respond to you at all, even then you could drive off, dial 911 and move on. If you intend to hit me with your car your car could be considered a weapon if I were on foot or a motorcycle,even then, there may be other options.

  6. #85
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    OHIO
    Posts
    2,109
    Some on here remind me of my time in the service..... Sitting around in camp or whatever, shooting our mouths off and trying to impress each other with what we "thought we knew" like for example...

    "If you put foil on the grill of your car, the cops radar wont work and you wont get pulled over for speeding"

    Yes, it is quite untrue, but those kinds of stories/falsehoods get passed around as fact, because we either didnt know any better, or werent smart enough to figure out how wrong it actually was...

    Some of us here are past that stage (we grew up), and others are still insisting on showing their ignorance... and keep trying to say some things are so... Even when shown how wrong they are, they NEVER SEEM TO GIVE ANY PROOF to back up what they say, even when directly asked for it..

    The ball is in THEIR COURT... I have challenged their assertions, yet they refuse to back up what they say with any proof...... They just walk around patting each other on the back and say yep, you are right, even when logic and those pesky facts get in the way.....

  7. #86
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    State of Confusion
    Posts
    7,733
    Quote Originally Posted by Panheadzz View Post
    I see alot of posters refer to road rage as not a deadly enough situation to display or use your firearm. So, when I am on one of my old junky motorcycles barely able to do the back road speed limit of 55 and some idiot decides to attempt to run me off the road because he is in a big hurry and then returns to attempt to do it again, is that not assault with a deadly weapon?? Believe it or not it has happened more than a handful of times. Went down once and they laughed as they rode away. Luckily I have survived.
    Yes, if it was intentional it could be construed as a vehicular assault. Incidents of road rage frequently end in two parties fighting on the side of the road. After hitting 50 years old I started to drive a little slower. Now I have kids in baby seats flipping me off. I don't respond... ever. These types of fights take two to tango. If someone pulls a RR against you and you pull over to participate in the fight you can lose your affirmative defense (justification for defense) in that you participated in the escalation of the encounter. The guy who ran you off should have been prosecuted. Did you get him?
    GOD, GUNS and GUITARS

  8. #87
    Unfortunatly no. I was a bit busy trying to decide whether to hit a tree, guardrail or dump it quick. Dumped it. Got a little road rash and a smashed tank and a few busted off pieces, but all is well now. My eyes aren't what they used to be and acceleration is mute on these old clunkers and that could be misconstrued as escalating the situation if I could accelerate enough to get closer for the #. I'm way too old to start fighting in the streets anymore. Unfortunatly I am at a great disadvantage on an old bike. Can't run away and can't stop. What's a feller to do?? LOL

  9. #88
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    OHIO
    Posts
    2,109
    Quote Originally Posted by Panheadzz View Post
    Unfortunatly no. I was a bit busy trying to decide whether to hit a tree, guardrail or dump it quick. Dumped it. Got a little road rash and a smashed tank and a few busted off pieces, but all is well now. My eyes aren't what they used to be and acceleration is mute on these old clunkers and that could be misconstrued as escalating the situation if I could accelerate enough to get closer for the #. I'm way too old to start fighting in the streets anymore. Unfortunatly I am at a great disadvantage on an old bike. Can't run away and can't stop. What's a feller to do?? LOL
    Not much you can do... Maybe carry a small video recorder like this one? (I have one and it works great)

    Rechargeable Digital Pin-hole Spy Video Camera + USB Drive Disguised as Working Pen (4GB) - Free Shipping - DealExtreme

    Just have it clipped to your pocket, all it takes is 1 button push and about 10 seconds later, it is recording....

  10. #89
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Kentucky
    Posts
    699
    Quote Originally Posted by Phillip Gain:238390
    Earlier in the discussion I said:

    Quote Originally Posted by Phillip Gain View Post
    Think of it like this.

    As soon as that firearm comes out of the holster, you are using deadly force, whether or not you fire it.

    The use of deadly force is justified only when you REASONABLY BELIEVE your life or safety is in imminent danger. (And in some jurisdictions, you have a duty to retreat.) It is also justified when you FACTUALLY KNOW the life or safety of someone else is in imminent danger and you choose to intervene.

    (Side note: It is important to understand that the "reasonable person" standard applies to self-defense...whereas "facts in evidence" apply when defending another. It's a big difference.)

    If you draw your firearm in a confrontation when neither of the above circumstances is present, you are brandishing.
    There's been a lot of discussion about this. So maybe I should clarify the point a little further.

    I'm not talking about unholstering at your friend's BBQ for some "show and tell." I'm not talking about printing or inadvertently "flashing" your firearm while reaching for the oatmeal on the top shelf at your grocery store. And I'm not talking about open carry.

    I'm specifically talking about when you are carrying concealed, and find yourself in a confrontation of any sort. WHEN YOU PULL YOUR FIREARM FROM ITS HOLSTER (OR OTHERWISE REVEAL IT), YOU HAVE INTRODUCED DEADLY FORCE INTO THE EQUATION IF IT WAS NOT IN PLAY ALREADY. Once you do so...courts WILL hold you responsible for doing so, if it is determined that you were not justified. And the only surefire justification for bringing deadly force to bear is that you reasonably believed your life was in danger, or you factually knew that the life of someone else was in danger.

    There really isn't a lot of grey area here. But there IS some, since laws vary from state to state, and since prosecutorial zeal also varies. If you want a more in-depth discussion on this, then I strongly recommend that you spend a couple hundred bucks and consult with an attorney in your area. It is also a good idea to take the two NRA Personal Protection courses. Each has a section on Deadly Force and the Law that can be taught only by an attorney or someone specifically trained in teaching that section.

    It also needs to be noted that charges such as "menacing" or "brandishing" are SUBJECTIVE rather than OBJECTIVE. The key element is that the victim of the crime was feeling fear for his or her life and/or safety. This is the piece that varies so widely.

    For example, in West Virginia where I grew up, it was pretty common for someone to walk around armed - perhaps with a pistol or knife on his belt, or maybe with a long gun in a rack in his pickup. No one was afraid.

    However, here in Massachusetts, if I were to walk into Wal-Mart with my .357 carried openly at my side, there is a good chance that the police would be called and I'd be charged with multiple counts of brandishing, menacing, disturbing the peace, etc, because I scared the crap out of 20 people between the entry door and the sporting goods counter. (Never mind the fact that there are no laws in Mass that specifically prohibit the open carry of a loaded firearm.)

    So when is it brandishing? When you cause someone to feel fear at the sight of your firearm.

    When is it justified? When you reasonably believe your life or safety is in danger, or when you factually know that the life or safety of someone else is in danger.
    While I agree with your point on "reasonable belief", you should read the specifics on those laws that you fear you would be wrongfully charged with. I believe you will find that they would not apply to the mere act of carrying a gun for one or more reasons.

    For instance, in the particular legalese of my states statutes;

    Menacing would not apply because it requires a person to reasonably believe their life was in danger. Same requirement that using a firearm in SD requires.

    Disorderly conduct or disturbing the peace would not apply because SD is a legitimate purpose.

    Brandishing would be foolish because of the aforementioned legitimate definition in the English dictionary.

    If your laws are not written this way, I suggest you lobby for them to be, or lobby for the legislators to be replaced by those that will.

  11. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by Axeanda45 View Post
    Alright mr know-it-all.... please show me in ANY OF MY POSTS IN BOTH THREADS where I said that the firearm was pointed to "scare" someone...... You seem to be hell-bent on refusing to answer the simple question I have asked you at least 5 times.....

    All you ever do is keep repeating that YOU WOULD MURDER SOMEONE WHO IS NO LONGER A THREAT, just to keep from being possibly accused of "brandishing"...

    Do you really, actually think this way? Is this how you want to portray yourself in public record (this forum) when, heaven forbid, you actually DO have to defend yourself? With all these posts you have made, the prosecuting attorney will have enough grounds to make the charge pre-meditated murder...

    You are quite dangerous and I suggest you take your own advice that you keep trying to give me, which is to seek some psychiatric help....Please do so soon, as you are just itching to kill..... You have shown us all this, why cant you see it yourself? Delusion? Pride? Just plain bat-sh** crazy?
    Im not wasting my time with your long rants so do me a favor and stop quoting me.

Page 9 of 14 FirstFirst ... 7891011 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Quantcast