Analysis of USAirways FFDO Discharge
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Thread: Analysis of USAirways FFDO Discharge

  1. #1

    Analysis of USAirways FFDO Discharge

    This is an interesting piece. I've never seen the FFDO rig, but it looks pretty ridiculous, and I now fully understand what might've transpired in the cockpit. Unfortunately, all the "Massengil products" at the TSA will blame others instead of their flawed policies. Ban guns in the cockpit!!!

    http://www.crimefilenews.com/2008/03...policy-of.html
    Victory rewards not the army that fires the most rounds, but who is the more accurate shot. ---Unknown

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  3. #2
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    That makes sense.
    Ironic that a pad lock designed for safety, causes a very unsafe situation.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]In order to rally people, governments need enemies. They want us to be afraid, to hate, so we will rally behind them. And if they don't have a real enemy, they'll invent one in order to mobilize us.

  4. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cooter View Post
    That makes sense.
    Ironic that a pad lock designed for safety, causes a very unsafe situation.
    Wouldn't have been an issue if the pilot followed the instructions of the holster manufacturer.
    "A few well placed shots with a .22LR is a lot better than a bunch of solid misses with a .44 mag!" Glock Armorer, NRA Chief RSO, Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun, Muzzleloading Rifle, Muzzleloading Shotgun, and Home Firearm Safety Training Counselor

  5. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Glock Fan View Post
    Wouldn't have been an issue if the pilot followed the instructions of the holster manufacturer.
    Of course it was pilot error. Pilots are human. They have lapses of judgement. Lapses in judgement have caused crashes. But, it is the job of systems engineers to engineer systems that are fail soft. Every incedent of pilot error is a teachable moment. Systems are analysed (including training and proceedures and equipment) and sometimes changes are made.

    In my opinion (I am a systems engineer), the holster/lock is not a fail soft solution. However, one must remember, this solution was developed more by politics than good engineering practice. Given the politics, I am not hopeful of a better engineered solution.

    My takeoff on an old saw... A camel is a mouse designed by politions.
    Howard
    I carry a gun because I can't carry a cop!
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  6. #5
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    What a crock! I can see how that system could cause problems. Why have a lock anyway? They have to lock the gun before they can open the cockpit door...that's when they really need it. When is the best time to take over an aircraft, when the door is opened. Plus the BG's now know their procedures
    USAF Retired, CATM, SC CWP, NH NR CWP, NRA Benefactor
    To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of people always possess arms, and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them... -- Richard Henry Lee, 1787

  7. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by PascalFleischman View Post
    Ban guns in the cockpit!!!
    PascalFleischman

    Are you serious about this? Why?

  8. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by TR4A View Post
    PascalFleischman

    Are you serious about this? Why?
    I think he was being facetious.
    USAF Retired, CATM, SC CWP, NH NR CWP, NRA Benefactor
    To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of people always possess arms, and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them... -- Richard Henry Lee, 1787

  9. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by HowardCohodas View Post
    Of course it was pilot error. Pilots are human. They have lapses of judgement. Lapses in judgement have caused crashes. But, it is the job of systems engineers to engineer systems that are fail soft. Every incedent of pilot error is a teachable moment. Systems are analysed (including training and proceedures and equipment) and sometimes changes are made.

    In my opinion (I am a systems engineer), the holster/lock is not a fail soft solution. However, one must remember, this solution was developed more by politics than good engineering practice. Given the politics, I am not hopeful of a better engineered solution.

    Well, I'm not a "systems engineer" or any other type of "engineer". My experience as a NRA Instructor tell me that the safest and most practical solution would be a concealed lock box or gun safe in the cockpit. I've seen them on private jets that I've worked on so I know that there are places where these things can be installed.

    Reality is that humans do make mistakes. Some mistakes are more serious than others. I sincerely hope that the pilot gets some type of punishment that reflects the seriousness of the "lapse in judgment" that he had.



    gf
    "A few well placed shots with a .22LR is a lot better than a bunch of solid misses with a .44 mag!" Glock Armorer, NRA Chief RSO, Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun, Muzzleloading Rifle, Muzzleloading Shotgun, and Home Firearm Safety Training Counselor

  10. #9
    This just in this morning on the Shooting Wire--Termination proceedings begin for the pilot:

    "The Federal Flight Deck Officers Association says US Airways has begun termination processes against Capt. James Lengenhahn, the pilot whose firearm accidentally discharged in the cockpit during a flight last month. Langenhahn, 55, told investigators he was in the process of stowing his .40 caliber H&K USP when it accidentally fired. Flight Deck Officers Association vice president Mike Karn, the association that represents federally trained pilots who are allowed to carry firearms on flights, says the association will fight the termination. "This accident was not intentional," Karn said, "This is not the way to treat a long-term pilot." The gun discharge was the first public incident of its kind in the history of the Federal Flight Deck Officer program, which has trained thousands of pilots to carry weapons in an effort to improve aviation safety. The stowage and securing procedures mandated for the flight deck firearms has been widely criticized as dangerous and made an accidental discharge inevitable."

  11. #10
    I'm actually really surprised they use those lockthrough type holsters. I would have gone for a stow away type box or something. Thats more typical in private planes and other means of transportation. It seems a bit less prone to problems, than something that places a lock through the barrier of the trigger guard. An improperly seated firearm and a lock can yield problems. Again, coming from a "systems" pov like others. However, does anyone know if it is policy to be locking up the gun still loaded in that holster. Seems like a possiblity for failure. It just seems like a bad recipe to add a tired pilot and such a complicated method of storing a weapon. pulling off the holster and tucking it in a lockbox seems to be a better option. I still see it utimately a failure of the individual and perhaps training. Still, I'd be interested to read the policy and procedures involved. It seems like storing in the on position within that holster has bad potential, if someone is not paying exact attention. Its a shame the pilot was fired, but at least this can hopefully be a learning experience, and not an excuse to rid cockpits of firearms.
    They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.
    ---Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759.

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