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Thread: Which Weapon Is Right For YOU?

  1. #11
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Quote Originally Posted by whodat2710 View Post
    My intent is to protect myself and my family. If I have a shotgun in my hand, then the attacker is far enough away that racking a round in might give him a moment of pause. If he's close enough that I need to get a shot off NOW, it would be several with my sidearm.
    Why even bother loading your shotgun if just the noise is enough? Why not just keep it empty and rack the slide back and forth repeatedly? That should REALLY scare them away!
    (Sarcasm off)

    I keep every weapon I own fully loaded and ready to go. Your only warning will be a bright flash followed by an intense burning pain just before you hit the floor!

    Sent from behind enemy lines.

  3. #12
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Pacific Northwest
    Video has been removed by user, so can't comment based its content.

    +1 to MADnMO regarding HD/SD choice of implements and theology

    9mm * 2 sleep with us right next to the bed, 12 ga + 7.62X39 * 30 shots close and available for repelling boarders.
    Bedroom is on the 2nd floor with 1 stairway, so approach can be covered with #00 * 8 rds.
    Bedroom window looks down on front yard so .30 Commie Short is available for that unusual situation when HD/SD is required at abnormal range.
    I don't go with the "rack a round and scare 'em away" approach. If the situation is ugly enough to require that level of response why go in 1 round down, or let the BG know you are aware of his presence and where you are? The only sound the BG should hear is *CLICK, BOOM* -
    repeat as necessary with racking sounds between shots (or not, if using autoloader).
    Better to perish in the struggle for freedom than live to see defeat. There ARE things to be feared more than death. The fyrd is a Constitutional imperative.

  4. #13
    Bikenut Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by whodat2710 View Post
    One thing to remember is that the sound of a shot shell being racked is universally understood. In CG LE we teach that it is actually a level of "use of force" right up there with a warning shot.
    Another thing to remember is when the bad guy hears a pump shotgun being "racked" he now knows where you are.

    But the biggest thing to remember is many bad guys are not scared when they hear a shotgun being "racked" because they brought guns of their own.

  5. #14
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    SE FL and SE OH
    Quote Originally Posted by Bikenut View Post
    Another thing to remember is when the bad guy hears a pump shotgun being "racked" he now knows where you are.

    But the biggest thing to remember is many bad guys are not scared when they hear a shotgun being "racked" because they brought guns of their own.
    If the bad guys listen real close they'll hear the "snick" as the 1911 goes off safe. The next thing they will hear and see is a flash and a bang. Then they might see 30 bright flashes in a row. All without reloading. If 85 rounds of .45ACP don't do the job, then the 5.56 and the .40S&W will get a chance. And you are right, the racking of the 12ga won't scare an armed crook. But the sound of a bolt closing on an AR-15 or a MAC-10 clone might.
    NRA Certified Pistol Instructor
    NRA Certified RSO
    Normal is an illusion. What is normal to the spider is chaos to the fly.

  6. #15
    Join Date
    May 2012
    I'll tell ya..... With all the firepower being mentioned here, its amazing that idiots still attempt to do home invasions!
    Put the afore mentioned losers in front of a computer with access to sites like this and you would think they would think twice?!
    Very very bad odds for the bad guy against all this firepower..... but stupid is as stupid does!

    Sent from behind enemy lines.

  7. #16
    Bikenut Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by opsspec1991 View Post
    By EJ Owens

    In this video from Tactical Home Defense, I go over several weapons-choices and the pros and cons of each. But here's something critical to remember... you must make your mind up BEFORE you find yourself face-to-face with a bad guy.

    Since this video has been removed by the user I have no way of knowing what the video covered.. but I can say this...

    The weapon that is right for you is the one that you can make acceptably accurate center of mass hits (center of mass is NOT always the chest but IS always the center of the biggest part of the bad guy you can hit with your shots!) firing rapid fire.

    Why rapid fire? Because real world situations have absolutely no similarities to the controlled and safe atmosphere of a range where no one is shooting back at you. In the real world folks generally will shoot just as fast as they can... so... can you hit your target shooting as fast as you can?

    If you can't you need to reevaluate your caliber/gun size/gun weight/gun fit choices... because...

    If you can't reliably hit the broad side of a barn from inside the barn with a .45 but can put all the rounds in your .22 pistol into a small paper plate sized target firing as fast as you can... then the .22 will serve you better than the .45 because... like it or not... and flying in the face of all the BS about bigger calibers being better..............

    Only hits count! And a bunch of hits with a .22 are a hell of a lot better than a whole bunch of misses with a .45.

    So... which weapon is right for you?

    The one that you can reliably hit your target with...

    Nothing but hits count.

  8. We were taught a 3-shot method; lower torso (disable pelvic structure), gut shot (hopefully hit a vital organ or two), and finally dead center mass (breast plate).

    I prefer the center mass until the threat is neutralized. I don't know which is better; disable attacker first, or center mass first.

    I've heard some nasty stories about attackers with full mobility, still able to continue attack for 10 seconds or more with center mass hits, and mortally wounded (handguns).

    I'll bet an actual home defense scenario is not going to present a textbook defense, so the shoot 'til the attacker is no longer a threat modus operandi may be the real deal.

    Oh, the sound of a pump shotgun being racked deterring an attacker is an old wives' tale. You have given away your location, and may lose the battle; the attacker now knows where you are. You have no element of surprise.

    If you don't already have a round chambered in anything you own before the attacker reaches you, you may have lost the battle as well.

    All my self defense weapons are hot, always. May have to take Biden's advice and get a shotgun. It will have to be a 12 gauge tactical semi-auto, however, without pistol grip. I don't know why, but I have an aversion to a pistol grip on a shotgun, but love one on an AR.

  9. #18
    Join Date
    May 2012
    The “Center Mass” Myth and Ending a Gunfight -Triggernometry

    The “Center Mass” Myth and Ending a Gunfight

    By Jim Higginbotham

    Surviving a gunfight isn’t what you think it is. Don’t let conventional wisdom get you killed. A well place round to “center mass” in your attacker may not take him out of the fight. Lots of people stay in the fight after “center mass” hits, and some even win it. If you expect to win your gunfight, you have to make sure that you have effectively ended the threat of your attacker. One, two or even several well placed “center mass” shots may not do what you think it will, and learning to recognize this before you gunfight may save your life.

    There is a self styled self defense “expert” under every rock, and perhaps two behind every bush, these days. If you have a pet theory on what might work on the street then you can probably find a champion for that idea who actually charges people to teach them that skill. But few of the experts out there have ever been in gunfights, and even fewer have studied real gunfights to see how things really work out when the bullets really fly for blood.

    There are more misconceptions out there than I can cover in one article but the one that probably gets to me the most, even over all the caliber wars that rage interminably in the print and cyber media, is the nearly universal acceptance that shooting a miscreant “center mass” with ________(fill in your favorite make, model and caliber) shooting _________ (fill in your favorite ammunition) hyper speed truck killer is practically guaranteed to get the job done.

    Having studied in this field from a number of decades, I have run into plenty of cases where bullets did not do what folks would have assumed. And I have now collected enough of these that I think that rather than being anomalies, they are actually closer to the norm. Center mass hits in a gunfight do not in most cases end the fight. Erroneous assumptions can get you killed!

    There is a well known video in training circles in which a Highway Patrol officer shoots an armed subject 5 times “center mass” (this is not my assessment but the statement of his immediate supervisors which are interviewed on the full version of the hour long tape) with his 4” .357 Magnum revolver firing hollow point ammunition. All 5 hits failed to do the job and the subject was able to fire one round which struck the officer in the armpit. That round wondered around in the chest cavity and found his heart. The officer unfortunately died at the scene and his attacker is alive today.

    In a class I conduct under the title “Fire For Effect” I start out by showing a video of standoff in which a hostage taker is fired on by police with .223 rifles and .40 caliber handguns. Throughout the whole disturbing sequence, which lasts about 10 seconds, the bad guy is hit multiple times in the torso with both rifle and pistol rounds. You can see him place his non-firing hand to his chest, clearly a lung is hit. However he is able to shoot his hostage 3 times, not rapidly. The hostage, a trim female, is active throughout the scene but later died from her wounds. In this case both the attacker and the victim had “center mass” hits that had no immediate effect.

    I have accumulated confirmed incidents in which people have been shot “center mass” up to 55 times with 9mm JHP ammunition (the subject was hit 106 times, but 55 of those hits were ruled by the coroner to be each lethal in and of themselves) before he went down. During training at the FBI Academy we were told of a case in which agents shot a bank robber 65 times with 9mm, .223 and 00 buckshot – he survived! These are not rare cases. The happen quite often.

    If a gunfight ever comes your way, your attacker may fall to a hit to the liver and he may not. He may fall to two or three hits to the kidneys, intestines or spleen, but he may not. He will certainly be in bad health. He likely will not survive, but what he does for the next several seconds to a few minutes is not guaranteed because you hit him “center mass.”

    Heart and lung hits don’t statistically fare much better. I have three students and three other acquaintances who were all shot in a lung at the outset of gunfights. The students came to me after their fights to learn how to keep from getting shot again. Last time I checked all of those people were still alive and the people who shot them are still dead. Every one of them was able to respond effectively after being shot “center mass”, one might even say they were shot in the “A-zone”. And they were shot with .38 Special (three of them), 9mm, .357 Magnum and 8mm Mauser, so it’s not all about caliber. One of those was a Chicom 12.7 mm round! He lived next door to me for many years.

    So, what’s a person to do? First off, realize that one shot, even a fairly well placed shot may not do the job so don’t set there and admire your handiwork or wait for it to take effect. But even two hits may not get the job done!

    After years of trying to get a grasp on this I have come to look at the results of shooting a living breathing target – be it a human attacker or a game animal – as falling into 3 or 4 categories. They are :

    Instant Collapse – this takes place 1 to 2 seconds from the shot being fired
    Rapid Collapse – this can take from 3 to 15 seconds and is quite common.
    Marginal Effect – this can even be a lethal hit but it takes from 15 to 300 (yes 300!) or even more seconds.
    The 4th is simply unacceptable and is a total failure.
    The last category we don’t like to discuss but happens too often . We saw it recently in Washington with a Center Mass hit from an officer’s pistol and the subject was still walking around the next day.

    What is “effective” shooting? Sad to say, it is demanding. It is also, I think, variable depending on the conditions. For example, the robber armed with a scattergun who is standing 10 feet away must be stopped “right now!” If you do not bring about Instant Collapse someone may very well die…that someone may be you!

    On the other hand, if there is a gang banger launching bullets in your general direction using un-aimed fire about 20 yards away then a hit that brings about Rapid Collapse might do the job.

    I cannot imagine a Marginally Effective result being very desirable in any case, but it does buy you some time in some cases.

    How does this relate to hits? In order to achieve Instant Collapse you must scramble the “circuitry” that keeps the bad guy on the attack. That means the brain or spinal cord.

    The head is not only a fairly difficult target to hit in the real world – because it moves a lot – but it is also difficult to penetrate and get a pistol bullet into the place it must be to be effective. For normal purposes we might write off the head, keeping it in reserve for very special circumstances.

    The spine is not that easy to hit either. It isn’t large, and to be effective the hit needs to be in the upper 1/3 of the spine or at a point about level with the tip of the sternum. I think that is around T11. But of course the huge problem is that it is hidden by the rest of the body. We are the good guys, we don’t go around shooting people in the back. So the exact location is something that can only be learned through lots of practice on 3D targets. Your point of aim on the surface changes with the angle at which the target is facing.

    The bottom of the spine isn’t much use. I know of several people shot in the pelvis. It did not break them down as many theorize. I am not saying it doesn’t happen but in the only case I know of in which it did the person who was “anchored” with a .357 magnum to the pelvis killed the person that shot him – you can shoot just fine from prone.

    A shot, or preferably multiple shots to the heart and major arteries above the heart (not below!) may achieve Rapid Collapse, but not always. Officer Stacy Lim was shot in the heart at contact distance with a .357 Magnum and is still alive and her attacker is still dead! Score one for the good guys…or in this case gals!

    So now what constitutes Marginal Effectiveness? A hit to the lungs! Even multiple hits to the lungs. Unfortunately though, most often lung hits are effective in ending the fight because the subject decides to quit the fight, not because he MUST. A famous Colonel Louis LeGarde once wrote what is considered “the” book on gunshot wounds. 65% of his patients shot through the lungs – with rifles! – survived with the predominant treatment being only bed rest!

    Effective Practice and “Dynamic Response”

    The goal of practice, one would think, is to make correct, effective shooting techniques a matter of reflex, so that you don’t have to think about what you are doing in a gunfight.

    Most people will perform under stress at about 50 to 60% as well as they do on the range…and that is if they practice a lot! If they only go to the range once every other month that performance level decreases dramatically. Shooting and weapons handling are very perishable skills. Also folks tend to practice the wrong stuff inadvertently. I put this in the classification of “practicing getting killed” but that too is a topic for another day.

    Movement and Variation doesen’t mean
    innacurate shooting. In a real gunfight you and
    your adversary will most likely
    be moving. Click here if you can’t see the video.
    Let’s talks about a basic response, what I call “Dynamic Response.” Situations vary and this is not meant to be a universal answer, just one that will work for about 80% of scenarios.

    It is pointless to stand still on the range and shoot a stationary target, unless you simply want to polish up some marksmanship fundamentals. That is a necessary part of learning to shoot. But if you are practicing for a fight, then fight!

    Some rules.

    Don’t go to the range without a covering garment – unless of course you always carry your gun exposed (no comment).
    Don’t practice drawing your gun fast – ever! – while standing still.
    Part of the Dynamic Response is to step off the line of attack (or on rare occasions that are dependent on circumstances backwards or forwards) and present the weapon with as much alacrity as you can muster and engage the target with overwhelming and accurate fire! By the way, never assume a fight is completely over just because you canceled one threat. Don’t practice “standing down” too quickly. We have a video attached which will hopefully give you the right idea.

    I wish there was a formula of how to stand and how to hold you gun but there really isn’t. We don’t do “Weaver vs. Isosceles vs. Modern Iso vs. whatever”. We don’t do “Thumbs Crossed vs. Thumbs Forward vs. Thumb Up…never mind.” Those are things for you to work out on your own. You use what makes YOU effective not what works for a guy who practices 50,000 rounds the week before a big match (that is not an exaggeration). Competitive shooters will throw out advice on what works for them. It may not work for you.

    There is also not “one true gun”. Your skill is far more important that what you carry, within reason. We are not really talking about “stopping power”, whatever that is, here but rather effectiveness.

    I can find no real measure – referred to by some as a mathematical model – of stopping power or effectiveness. And I have looked for 44 years now! Generally speaking I do see that bigger holes (in the right place) are more effective than smaller holes but the easy answer to that is just to shoot your smaller gun more – “a big shot is just a little shot that kept shooting”. True, I carry a .45 but that is because I am lazy and want to shoot less. A good bullet in 9mm in the right place (the spine!) will get the job done. If you hit the heart, 3 or 4 expanded 9mms will do about what a .45 expanding bullet will do or one might equal .45 ball….IF (note the big if) it penetrates. That is not based on any formula, it is based on what I have found to happen – sometimes real life does not make sense.

    Practicing Dynamic Response means practicing with an open mind. Circumstances in a real gunfight are unpredictable and the more unpredictability you mix up into your practice the more your brain will be preparing itself for a possible real gunfight.

    In real life, your gunfight may be dark, cold, rainy, etc. The subject may be anorexic (a lot of bad guys are not very healthy) or he may be obese (effective penetration and stopping power of your weapon). There are dozens of modifiers which change the circumstance, most not under your control. My only advice on this is what I learned from an old tanker: “Shoot until the target changes shape or catches fire!” Vertical to horizontal is a shape change, and putting that one more round into his chest at point blank range may catch his clothes on fire, even without using black powder.

    We tell our military folks to be prepared to hit an enemy fighter from 3-7 times with 5.56 ball, traveling at over 3,000 feet per second. This approach sometimes worked, but I know of several cases where it has not, even “center mass.”

    With handguns, and with expanding bullets, it is even more unpredictable, but through years of study I have developed a general formula, subject to the above mentioned unpredictable circumstances.

    2-3 hits with a .45
    4-6 with a .40
    5-8 with a 9mm
    With a revolver, the rounds are not necessarily more effective but I would practice shooting 3 in a .38 or .357 merely because I want 3 left for other threats. Not that those next three won’t follow quickly if the target hasn’t changed shape around my front sight blade. A .41, .44 or .45 Colt I would probably drop to two. Once again, they are not that much more effective than a .45 Auto but I don’t have the bullets to waste.

    In any case, I want to stress the part that it is more about how you shoot than what you shoot, within reason. It is also more about the mindset and condition of the subject you are shooting which is not under your control. Take control – buy good bullets and put them where they count the most! And remember “anyone worth shooting once is worth shooting a whole lot!” (but please stop when the threat is cancelled, we don’t advocate “finishing shots”).

    Gunfights are ugly things. I don’t like to talk about the blood and guts aspects of defending life any more than the next guy. But it is our lives we are talking about here. By researching how gunfights are fought, and more importantly, how gunfights are won, it may give both of us the edge if a gunfight ever comes our way. I hope to cover many of the points I have learned and learned to train others in over the coming months. It isn’t as easy to write about it as it is to teach it in person, but you can only succeed if you are willing to try.

    I hope you enjoy the ride.

    Press on!


  10. #19

    Welcome any time day or night, you just may not leave.

    Quote Originally Posted by CharlesMorrison View Post
    I'll tell ya..... With all the firepower being mentioned here, its amazing that idiots still attempt to do home invasions!
    Put the afore mentioned losers in front of a computer with access to sites like this and you would think they would think twice?!
    Very very bad odds for the bad guy against all this firepower..... but stupid is as stupid does!

    Sent from behind enemy lines.
    That is what they are looking for (the guns). Up until just several months ago, I never locked my house when I went away, unless I was leaving town for more than 2 days.
    With a rash of burglaries during daytime hours and several home invasion during night time hours has forced me to rethink my arrangements and comfort zones.
    With that said, God help any person who decides that I have what he wants and isn't willing to pay me for to privilege of owning it out right.
    I have always believed in defending and guarding what is dear to me (family and home) and have never really believed in the criminial justice system doing what it was supposedly design to do properly (too many plea bargains and early releases due to bugetary problems). So it is then up to the public to defend themselves and to hell with the rest of the world, sorry if that upsets or is disrespectful to any of you out there. But, I was raised to understand that any person can do anything in their life time as long as they are willing to pay the consequences of their actions and during my life my decisions have cost me dearly and although I have regrets I live with and honor the decisions that I have made during my life and would do them all again.
    So for they that want to take what I have they can come visit anytime day or night, just make sure your affairs are in order, for only God will be able to help them.
    I'd rather be a Conservative Nutjob. Than a Liberal with NO Nuts & NO Job

  11. #20
    Bikenut Guest
    Good article CharlesMorrison!! Thank you for posting it.

    I have always had a problem with trainers who advocate a set number of rounds in certain places, 2 to the chest 1 to the head then pause and look left and right kind of thing, simply because if folks practice that enough they will do it while being attacked. And hesitating while being attacked is a very bad thing.

    There isn't any "magic bullet" no matter what size it may/may not be. There also isn't any "magic spot" to shoot either since a bullet sometimes will not penetrate the head but will follow the skull under the skin.

    The only thing a person can really rely on is a fierce burning desire to fight... fight... FIGHT! and keep on fighting until the bad guy quits attacking and they survive.... or they lose the fight and don't survive. There isn't any room in there for shooting the bad guy only a little bit and then hesitating to see if the bad guy is going to quit.

    And if shooting him doesn't work... keep on fighting... use a rock, your fists, your feet... bite his nose! But never stop fighting.

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