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Thread: Damn it all to hell

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by jcreek View Post
    You ever been shot wearing an "armored" vest? Unless that vest is made out of AR500 you're going to feel everyone and 16 COM is definitely going to put you on the ground. Some would even most likely penetrate. Vests aren't made to take more than one or two shots to the same area.
    Just had a policeman critically wounded in Pittsburgh that he and his partner shot the BG 15 times, 11 were COM (I know this because I know the officer who first arrived at the scene after this happened)... The BG was still able to get off many rounds and critically injure Auge's partner. The BG was not killed.

    If this BG, not wearing a vest could still get off that many rounds while being shot, the ocular cavity is a great place to practice shooting. Of course this BG was higher than a kite, but are you going to take that chance that the BG you go up against isn't that high? So let's add into the mix, a BG higher than a kite AND wearing a vest... you're toast if all you do is go COM. If COM isn't working, you go ocular cavity to stop the threat.
    "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote."
    ~ Benjamin Franklin (maybe)

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  3. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by wolf_fire View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jcreek View Post
    You ever been shot wearing an "armored" vest? Unless that vest is made out of AR500 you're going to feel everyone and 16 COM is definitely going to put you on the ground. Some would even most likely penetrate. Vests aren't made to take more than one or two shots to the same area.
    Just had a policeman critically wounded in Pittsburgh that he and his partner shot the BG 15 times, 11 were COM (I know this because I know the officer who first arrived at the scene after this happened)... The BG was still able to get off many rounds and critically injure Auge's partner. The BG was not killed.

    If this BG, not wearing a vest could still get off that many rounds while being shot, the ocular cavity is a great place to practice shooting. Of course this BG was higher than a kite, but are you going to take that chance that the BG you go up against isn't that high? So let's add into the mix, a BG higher than a kite AND wearing a vest... you're toast if all you do is go COM. If COM isn't working, you go ocular cavity to stop the threat.
    I don't disagree with you at all. A shot to the t-box formed by the eyes and nose almost guarantees severing the brain stem and immediately incapacitating your target. In COM doesn't work always go for the head if you can. I was just saying that even with a vest on, if you take 16 shots COM you're going to be at least temporally out of the fight. You're going to have several cracked ribs, massive bruising, and having a hard time breathing.

    With that said, I'd like links to your story if you have them. I don't quite believe that a BG was shot 11 times COM and lived. Especially if he was high. Those same drugs that keep BGs shooting while they're being shot (usually meth or cocaine) are the same ones that will dramatically increase the rate at which you bleed out.

  4. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by jcreek View Post
    I don't disagree with you at all. A shot to the t-box formed by the eyes and nose almost guarantees severing the brain stem and immediately incapacitating your target. In COM doesn't work always go for the head if you can. I was just saying that even with a vest on, if you take 16 shots COM you're going to be at least temporally out of the fight. You're going to have several cracked ribs, massive bruising, and having a hard time breathing.

    With that said, I'd like links to your story if you have them. I don't quite believe that a BG was shot 11 times COM and lived. Especially if he was high. Those same drugs that keep BGs shooting while they're being shot (usually meth or cocaine) are the same ones that will dramatically increase the rate at which you bleed out.
    Here's a link to the story. You'll also notice in the story the Pittsburgh police were questioning their ammunition, since a similar event happened earlier this year. From what I've been told from another officer, the police sent a sample batch of ammo to the FBI to have tested once again. The FBI came back with "it works as it should and as expected". Then why did he not drop one might ask. The reason is, even if you hit someone in the heart or lung, they still have about 30 seconds before they will bleed out or can't get enough oxygen to the brain. The ammo did what it was supposed to do. The only shots that will literally drop someone in their tracks is if you hit the spinal cord, brain stem, or brain.

    You are correct though... in MOST situations that many shots COM will stop someone from bring a threat. Just not all. This is why I always practice to go to ocular cavity after placing two in COM. While being a rarity, I feel it still important to train for it.

    Police officer shot during pursuit in Homewood | Allegheny Co. News - WTAE Home
    "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote."
    ~ Benjamin Franklin (maybe)

  5. Yep, a shot or several to the fuse box should work just fine. It even works on squirrels with my Marauder, one shot to the fuse box, and one anchored, humanely killed tree rat.

  6. #15
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    "Ocular cavity" disruption(?) is fine as long as its practiced on mobile targets.
    Most people don't stand still during a gun fight. They also tend to seek cover if possible so train efficiently for the above.
    Shooting holes in a stationary paper target is not going to be effective training.


    Sent from behind enemy lines.

  7. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by wolf_fire View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jcreek View Post
    I don't disagree with you at all. A shot to the t-box formed by the eyes and nose almost guarantees severing the brain stem and immediately incapacitating your target. In COM doesn't work always go for the head if you can. I was just saying that even with a vest on, if you take 16 shots COM you're going to be at least temporally out of the fight. You're going to have several cracked ribs, massive bruising, and having a hard time breathing.

    With that said, I'd like links to your story if you have them. I don't quite believe that a BG was shot 11 times COM and lived. Especially if he was high. Those same drugs that keep BGs shooting while they're being shot (usually meth or cocaine) are the same ones that will dramatically increase the rate at which you bleed out.
    Here's a link to the story. You'll also notice in the story the Pittsburgh police were questioning their ammunition, since a similar event happened earlier this year. From what I've been told from another officer, the police sent a sample batch of ammo to the FBI to have tested once again. The FBI came back with "it works as it should and as expected". Then why did he not drop one might ask. The reason is, even if you hit someone in the heart or lung, they still have about 30 seconds before they will bleed out or can't get enough oxygen to the brain. The ammo did what it was supposed to do. The only shots that will literally drop someone in their tracks is if you hit the spinal cord, brain stem, or brain.

    You are correct though... in MOST situations that many shots COM will stop someone from bring a threat. Just not all. This is why I always practice to go to ocular cavity after placing two in COM. While being a rarity, I feel it still important to train for it.

    Police officer shot during pursuit in Homewood | Allegheny Co. News - WTAE Home
    I'm very aware that even after taking several shot to COM targets can continue fighting until there's not enough blood pressure to make it to the brain. What surprises me is that usually after the 30 or so seconds of continued fighting the target bleeds out and dies quickly after losing consciousness especially after being shot that many times. The EMTs that saved him must have been extremely good at their job and quick to get there.

    Thanks for the link by the way, appreciate it,

  8. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by alternety View Post
    If you really want to be annoyed, fire a Boberg. Currently 9mm only (real small and a bit larger versions available), but something larger caliber soon. Handles heavy loads and has excellent accuracy. More energy at the muzzle than other comparable size guns (see web site to understand why). Very low recoil contributes to serious multi-shot accuracy.

    Once youve tried Boberg; you won't go back. No - I am not affiliated, but I have some of them. An amazing piece of machinery. Pricy, but unlike anything you have used.
    From what I've read, they are ammo sensitive. Boberg XR9-L Review | The Firearm Blog
    "Beware the fury of a patient man." --John Dryden,
    British poet, critic and playwright

  9. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by CharlesMorrison View Post
    "Ocular cavity" disruption(?) is fine as long as its practiced on mobile targets.
    Most people don't stand still during a gun fight. They also tend to seek cover if possible so train efficiently for the above.
    Shooting holes in a stationary paper target is not going to be effective training.


    Sent from behind enemy lines.
    Excellent advice. Our range has something called bottles and plates. The stack bottles and plates on a moving chain that moves side to side and there's a small competition to see who can hit the most with a certain number of rounds in a certain time frame. The chain doesn't have a constant speed and it changes direction. I haven't found anything around me that simulates shooting with movement on such a small target other than this.

    Does anyone know of any device that mimics bobbing and weaving action?
    "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote."
    ~ Benjamin Franklin (maybe)

  10. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by jcreek View Post
    I'm very aware that even after taking several shot to COM targets can continue fighting until there's not enough blood pressure to make it to the brain. What surprises me is that usually after the 30 or so seconds of continued fighting the target bleeds out and dies quickly after losing consciousness especially after being shot that many times. The EMTs that saved him must have been extremely good at their job and quick to get there.

    Thanks for the link by the way, appreciate it,
    You're welcome. .
    "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote."
    ~ Benjamin Franklin (maybe)

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