Having A Right To Carry Does Not Make You A LEO - Page 10
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Thread: Having A Right To Carry Does Not Make You A LEO

  1. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by Axeanda45 View Post
    STOP blaming the VICTIM!!!!!!!!!!!
    You continue to miss - or ignore - the point. It's not a matter of placing blame. The guy is DEAD no matter whose fault it is. The after-action analysis is to keep the same thing from happening to any of us in a similar situation. And, until things get to total anarchy or civil war, yeah, there may be a dead cop or two in your scenario, but it will still end the same way - you will be dead, too...

    So, tell us, how many cops would you have to take with you for you to consider that YOU won???
    Lewis - NRA Life - Oregon Firearms Federation - National Assoc. for Gun Rights

    Gun control is NOT about guns, it's about CONTROL.

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  3. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by walknotinfear View Post
    I hate Monday quarterbacking this situation but here it goes. I in the past have done the same as this elderly man did but I have many years of law enforcement training under my belt that I can fall back on (no longer in law enforcement). Now that I am a full fledge private citizen I have had a few occasions when I have excited my home with a firearm after I though crime 'was a foot' outside my home. But the safest way to do this in my opinion is with a holstered weapon either Open carry or Concealed carry. This way you do not have a accidental shooting by either plain clothes law enforcement officers or a uniformed law enforcement officer. These types of accidents do happen and even police officers shoot other officers in the heat of the moment. I can recall a plain clothes officer at a college football game in a parking lot working was shot by a uniformed officer. Unfortunately accidents do happen. I do not blame the responding police officers for using deadly force on this elderly person. It is tragic and my heart goes out to the gentlemen who lost his life.
    May I suggest that all of you think real careful before you act. So before you rush to pull a weapon think first and real hard. For example: I am a private citizen carrying a legally concealed firearm and I was getting out of my personal vehicle. As I approached the front of a bank I heard 4 gun shots coming from inside the bank. I immediately reverted to my training and took cover / concealment behind a big black SUV. I than see a white male exiting the front of the bank with a silver revolver in his right hand . Now the question I pose to you all. What would you have done at this point after hearing gun shots from inside the bank and now seeing a male exiting the Bank with a firearm in his right hand? (The following is not a true even but for training purposes only) I do have an outcome of this but want to hear from you all before I tell you the end of this untrue event.
    As a citizen? I'd take cover and dial 911, unless circumstances don't allow it. At this point I can't be sure who the bad guy is. And the guy isn't threatening me.
    Surely le would be cognizant of the same.

    But I like treo's answer best, it made me chuckle.



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    Of all tyrannies a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive.

  4. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Treo View Post
    Finally as for only following ďgoodĒ governments I find no specific command in Scripture that says we only follow good government. What Scripture does say very specifically (Romans 13) is that Government is instituted of God and that the government in power is there because God allowed it (this would include the current administration) and that we are obey the laws of that government unless they directly contradict the word of God.
    I agree (mostly) with your End Times analysis, and also agree that a logical case can be made that Romans 13 commands submission to government. However, I have to ask, does your understanding of Romans 13 reveal to you that the creation of the United States was an act against God? If so, then how could rebelling against the heirs of the God-instituted authority (today's administration) likewise go against God? If not, then why would separating ourselves from a tyrannical government today be any more against Romans 13 than our forebear's rebellious separation was against Great Britain?

    I am not asking to try to trap you into some Biblical inconsistency. I have been reading a lot about Romans 13 over the last year or so and am genuinely trying to understand it in the most Bible-compliant way possible. If you have answers to those questions, great, whether they comport with my self-image of an uncompromising Patriot or not, I would sincerely like to hear them. If you don't, believe me, you won't be the first to say so to me.

    Blues
    No one has ever heard me say that I "hate" cops, because I don't. This is why I will never trust one again though: You just never know...

  5. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by BluesStringer View Post
    I have to ask, does your understanding of Romans 13 reveal to you that the creation of the United States was an act against God?
    I knew someone was going to ask me that, I just didnít know who. The most honest answer I can give is I donít know but when I look at the totality of Scripture the only conclusion I can draw is that the United States exist because God willed it so.


    Quote Originally Posted by BluesStringer View Post
    If so, then how could rebelling against the heirs of the God-instituted authority (today's administration) likewise go against God? If not, then why would separating ourselves from a tyrannical government today be any more against Romans 13 than our forebear's rebellious separation was against Great Britain?
    Again, Iím going to lead off with I donít know. Iím not sure that rebelling against the current administration would be wrong so much as it would be pointless because of where (IMO) we are on Godís timetable. The only legitimate reason I could see for an armed revolt would be to restore the republic and I donít see it happening. Based on my understanding of Scripture I personally would not take up arms against my government without direct leading from God (and by direct I mean I can back up my decision scripturally and someone other than me agrees that ďyes this is of GodĒ) and even then I would expect to lose my life in the process.



    Quote Originally Posted by BluesStringer View Post
    I am not asking to try to trap you into some Biblical inconsistency.
    Whatever else we may disagree on I would never suspect you of that

    Quote Originally Posted by BluesStringer View Post
    I have been reading a lot about Romans 13 over the last year or so and am genuinely trying to understand it in the most Bible-compliant way possible. If you have answers to those questions, great, whether they comport with my self-image of an uncompromising Patriot or not, I would sincerely like to hear them. If you don't, believe me, you won't be the first to say so to me.

    Blues
    This is one of those topics that I have a very hard time articulating. Itís easy to say that God expects me to obey the government unless it directly contradicts his word but actually living that is another thing entirely. I live in a body that is made up of flesh, and my flesh doesn't want to give up it's ďrightsĒ I donít want to give up my toys, I donít want to give up my guns and I donít want to give up my freedom but the fact is that one way or another Iím going to give up all of those things one day whether I want to or not.

    Biblically I believe I gave up my rights the day I became a Christian. The Bible says weíre bought with a price, bought things are owned and owned thing donít have rights, they do as theyíre told. I want to use Corrie Tenboom as an example she wanted no part of the war she literally wanted to close up the watch shop lock the doors and not open them again until the war was over but God (those are the two most powerful words in the Bible BTW) had other plans for her life. His plan included putting her in the middle of a concentration camp to be a witness that no matter the circumstance she trusted God. Do you think she wanted to walk through that valley?

    In my life God has had me put some things on the table and made it very clear to me that my life isnít my own to do with as I please. Obviously Iíve not had to pay the price that Corrie Tenboom paid and I canít even say for sure that I would (I hope I have that much faith but I donít know) I do believe with all my heart that if God leads to me to similar valley then He will also lead me through it.

    The only thing I can say about being an uncompromising patriot is that as a Christian I can only claim Jesus Christ as my master. His claim on my loyalty has priority over my marriage vows, my oath of enlistment and every other oath or promise I've ever made.
    See, it's mumbo jumbo like that and skinny little lizards like you thinking they the last dragon that gives Kung Fu a bad name.
    http://www.gunrightsmedia.com/ Internet forum dedicated to second amendment

  6. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Axeanda45 View Post
    You are kidding, right?

    The man was On his OWN EFFING PROPERTY............ DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND PLAIN ENGLISH??????? YOU HAVE EVERY RIGHT TO HAVE A DRAWN WEAPON ON YOUR OWN PROPERTY ANY TIME FOR ANY EFFING REASON........... (as long as you dont go shooting it at someone/thing that dont need shooting, to put it in a Texas way)


    Why do you KEEP insisting that THE VICTIM in this tragedy is the one who is to blame for his own murder??????

    You KEEP ignoring the FACT that the cops were NOT supposed to be where they were!!!!!! The COPS are the ones who are 100% in the wrong here, period....

    You assume much, and it sounds like you thinking this is out in the country rather than in a subdivision. At my house, I can be in my driveway, and be in close proximity to several others. In the house pictured in the article you can see the next door neighbors house right next to his, so I assume the picture was probably taken from the driveway across the street. You can't see his garage from the street, so him being actually in his driveway makes sense.
    -
    Yes, he was in his driveway, but where were the cops? They could very well have been at the RIGHT address across the street AND seen him in his driveway with a gun. Cops at the right address find no bad guy and see a guy across the street with a gun. Is he a bad guy? I don't know, but if I am the cop I don't want him with a drawn weapon until I find out.
    -
    Now from the victims standpoint, you keep ranting about property rights. You damn sure have the right to protect your property, but if the neighbor thinks that protecting HIS property means having an alarm, his choice. Am I gonna die protecting someone elses property if they choose not to do so? Might be different if it was family, or if it was the actual neighbor, but not his property.
    -
    You speak of tactics. This man is in a large brick home. He hears his neighbors alarm go off and has no idea if there are bad guys, or how many. Could have been a dog setting off the alarm for all he knows. If I am protecting my property, I am verifying that I am locked and loaded and that the safety is off, while making sure my doors are locked. Bad guy(s) across the street, if there are any, may want to hide in my house when the cops show up and that ain't gonna happen. I'm turning on the outside lights and making sure my family is safe. Period. He tries to break in he has a surprise waiting for him, if it's the cops that stop by looking for him they will knock and identify themselves.

  7. #96
    ezkl2230 Guest
    One thing seems VERY lear to me about this situation - both of the officers responding to the call were rookies. Big, Big, BIG mistake! This is why most departments try to pair them up with more seasoned officers. Turning rookies without adequate experience loose on a situation like this and expecting them to handle it like a veteran officer is expecting way too much. So the officers responding were rookies who made things worse by going to the wrong house. The department screwed the pooch on this call all the way around.

    The family released a statement two day after the initial reports came out, saying that their father was actually in his own garage when he was shot. Sorry, I don't know the law in Texas, but Michigan law says you have the right to defend yourself anywhere on your property, even against police who are on your property without cause.

    Family accuses Fort Worth police of misrepresenting fatal shooting | Crime and Safety | ...

  8. #97
    ezkl2230 Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Treo View Post
    I knew someone was going to ask me that, I just didnít know who. The most honest answer I can give is I donít know but when I look at the totality of Scripture the only conclusion I can draw is that the United States exist because God willed it so.




    Again, Iím going to lead off with I donít know. Iím not sure that rebelling against the current administration would be wrong so much as it would be pointless because of where (IMO) we are on Godís timetable. The only legitimate reason I could see for an armed revolt would be to restore the republic and I donít see it happening. Based on my understanding of Scripture I personally would not take up arms against my government without direct leading from God (and by direct I mean I can back up my decision scripturally and someone other than me agrees that ďyes this is of GodĒ) and even then I would expect to lose my life in the process.





    Whatever else we may disagree on I would never suspect you of that



    This is one of those topics that I have a very hard time articulating. Itís easy to say that God expects me to obey the government unless it directly contradicts his word but actually living that is another thing entirely. I live in a body that is made up of flesh, and my flesh doesn't want to give up it's ďrightsĒ I donít want to give up my toys, I donít want to give up my guns and I donít want to give up my freedom but the fact is that one way or another Iím going to give up all of those things one day whether I want to or not.

    Biblically I believe I gave up my rights the day I became a Christian. The Bible says weíre bought with a price, bought things are owned and owned thing donít have rights, they do as theyíre told. I want to use Corrie Tenboom as an example she wanted no part of the war she literally wanted to close up the watch shop lock the doors and not open them again until the war was over but God (those are the two most powerful words in the Bible BTW) had other plans for her life. His plan included putting her in the middle of a concentration camp to be a witness that no matter the circumstance she trusted God. Do you think she wanted to walk through that valley?

    In my life God has had me put some things on the table and made it very clear to me that my life isnít my own to do with as I please. Obviously Iíve not had to pay the price that Corrie Tenboom paid and I canít even say for sure that I would (I hope I have that much faith but I donít know) I do believe with all my heart that if God leads to me to similar valley then He will also lead me through it.

    The only thing I can say about being an uncompromising patriot is that as a Christian I can only claim Jesus Christ as my master. His claim on my loyalty has priority over my marriage vows, my oath of enlistment and every other oath or promise I've ever made.
    I understand your position that you gave up your rights when you became a Christian, by which I mean that one turns their rights to the control of their lives over to God. However, this doesn't mean that one loses ALL of their rights, period, without qualification, referring to the rights we enjoy under the laws of the land. The Apostle Paul understood his rights as a Roman citizen well, and he made use of them to prolong his life and ministry. Look at Acts 16:36-38 as one example. Paul ended up appealing his case all the way to Caesar. You are dealing with two distinct sets of rights; spiritual rights regarding the control of one's life and destiny vs. rights protected by law.

  9. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by ezkl2230 View Post
    I understand your position that you gave up your rights when you became a Christian, by which I mean that one turns their rights to the control of their lives over to God. However, this doesn't mean that one loses ALL of their rights, period, without qualification, referring to the rights we enjoy under the laws of the land. The Apostle Paul understood his rights as a Roman citizen well, and he made use of them to prolong his life and ministry. Look at Acts 16:36-38 as one example. Paul ended up appealing his case all the way to Caesar. You are dealing with two distinct sets of rights; spiritual rights regarding the control of one's life and destiny vs. rights protected by law.
    Yes and no.

    Yes I have legal rights, I can refuse to allow the police to search my car, I can refuse to answer questions, and I can refuse to incriminate myself. But those rights ultimately come from God and He can rescind them at will. Again using Corrie Tenboom as an example, she lost all of her civil liberties, as, ultimately, did Paul.
    So, I’m glad for the gift of my civil liberties but they’re really nothing more than vapor
    See, it's mumbo jumbo like that and skinny little lizards like you thinking they the last dragon that gives Kung Fu a bad name.
    http://www.gunrightsmedia.com/ Internet forum dedicated to second amendment

  10. #99
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    Louis L’Amour once said “There’s no cause worth dying for that isn’t better served by living for.”
    I don’t see this as a case of standing up for your rights because no matter what, as soon as you confront the cops it isn’t going to end well for you. Either way you end up in jail or dead and no one’s gained anything. As I’ve stated numerous times in this thread the proper way to handle this situation is within the system. Which means in the moment you comply with the cop’s orders because you’re not going to survive any other course of action alive and with your freedom intact; if the police violate your civil liberties and you really think it’s worth it you pursue the matter in court.
    See, it's mumbo jumbo like that and skinny little lizards like you thinking they the last dragon that gives Kung Fu a bad name.
    http://www.gunrightsmedia.com/ Internet forum dedicated to second amendment

  11. #100
    ezkl2230 Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Treo View Post
    Yes and no.

    Yes I have legal rights, I can refuse to allow the police to search my car, I can refuse to answer questions, and I can refuse to incriminate myself. But those rights ultimately come from God and He can rescind them at will. Again using Corrie Tenboom as an example, she lost all of her civil liberties, as, ultimately, did Paul.
    So, I’m glad for the gift of my civil liberties but they’re really nothing more than vapor
    Did you notice that I said, "protected by law," not "granted by law?"

    Corrie and Paul didn't LOSE their God-given rights, they were forbidden the EXERCISE of those rights. Nothing in the Bible indicates that God "rescinded" their God-given rights. But we live in a world in which evil leaders who do not recognize those rights bring their powers to bear to prevent us from the free exercise of them. The slaves always had rights; man simply refused to recognize them for many years. As the SCOTUS case, United States v. Cruikshank says (I know, I'm quoting this one a LOT lately!),

    "With regard to those acknowledged rights and privileges of the citizen, which form a part of his political inheritance derived from the mother country, and which were challenged and vindicated by centuries of stubborn resistance to arbitrary power, they belong to him as his birthright, and it is the duty of the particular state of which he is a citizen to protect and enforce them, and to do naught to deprive him of their full enjoyment. When any of these rights and privileges are secured in the constitution of the United States only by a declaration that the state or the United States shall not violate or abridge them, IT IS AT ONCE UNDERSTOOD THAT THEY ARE NOT CREATED OR CONFERRED BY THE CONSTITUTION, BUT THAT THE CONSTITUTION ONLY GUARANTIES THAT THEY SHALL NOT BE IMPAIRED BY THE STATE, OR THE UNITED STATES, AS THE CASE MAY BE."
    The Danbury Baptists made a similar argument in their letter to Pres. Thomas Jefferson. They observed that they were being treated as if their God-given freedom of religion was in fact a gift from generous legislators instead of a God-given, unalienable right.

    We can't have our rights taken away from us, but the exercise of those rights rights can certainly be curtailed. To say that GOD can rescind them is also incorrect, because they are part of His very nature, and they are part and parcel of being created in His image. For God to rescind them is to change who He is, and the Bible tells us God doesn't change (Mal. 3:6, James 1:17).

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