WHY THE JURY DIDN'T LEARN ABOUT TRAYVON MARTIN Part 7 - Page 2
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Thread: WHY THE JURY DIDN'T LEARN ABOUT TRAYVON MARTIN Part 7

  1. and how about this one:
    “Zimmerman should have minded his own business on the night of Feb. 26, 2012. A teenager wandering a neighborhood — even one who looks like he might be on drugs — is not a crime. In a free country, a law-abiding young man should be free to walk in the rain, for no apparent reason, without having to explain himself to anyone — including cops or a self-appointed watchman. The gun should have provided Zimmerman with more rationale — not less — to avoid a non-essential conflict." Wayne Laugesen

  2.   
  3. And finally,
    And the most important lesson I’ve learned from the George Zimmerman case is, “Don’t go looking for trouble.” Paul Hsieh

  4. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by desertDog View Post
    And finally,
    And the most important lesson I’ve learned from the George Zimmerman case is, “Don’t go looking for trouble.” Paul Hsieh
    Important lessons for sure, but remember the law does not forbid lack of wisdom. He cold have been smarter, but that does not make him guilty of a crime.
    Si vis pacem para bellum

  5. #14
    You guys who are so eager, or at least willing, to place part of the blame on Zimmerman need to read this thread:

    http://www.usacarry.com/forums/gener...sad-ayoob.html

    Ayoob doesn't seem to agree with you...
    Lewis - NRA Life - Oregon Firearms Federation - National Assoc. for Gun Rights

    Gun control is NOT about guns, it's about CONTROL.

  6. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by K7lvo View Post
    You guys who are so eager, or at least willing, to place part of the blame on Zimmerman need to read this thread:

    http://www.usacarry.com/forums/gener...sad-ayoob.html

    Ayoob doesn't seem to agree with you...
    Wow. That makes two posts by you across these two threads where you suggest that no one's opinions are valid unless Massad Ayoob gives them to us.

    So I'll ask again, are you suggesting that all of George Zimmerman's actions on 2/26/12 are above reproach? No scrutiny should be applied by anyone but the jury and Massad Ayoob? And I'll add that the jury doesn't agree with Massad either, except to the extent that he says Zimmerman's actions were not unlawful. The jury didn't (and weren't allowed to) have to decide if his actions were smart, or free from tactical mistakes. If Ayoob really is ignoring all that in his 7-or-8-piece series on the case, he is doing concealed carriers no favors. He's not even doing George Zimmerman any favors if he's absolving him of any responsibility for what happened. It is not apparent to me through the evidence brought out in trial that Zimmerman has a freakin' clue what he could have done to avoid the whole situation, even if the shooting itself was legal, which I believe wholeheartedly that it was. You seem to be suggesting that because Ayoob doesn't speak of some of his actions as being contributory factors, that acknowledging and analyzing them as such, and still believing the shoot was legal, are mutually-exclusive concepts. Please quote Massad Ayoob suggesting such a thing, because if he does, I want to make sure I never listen to another word he says or writes.

    Can you show us anywhere that Ayoob says it was a good tactical decision to walk around with a flashlight with dead batteries (or an intermittently working switch, whatever) in the darkest part of the complex knowing a guy who he described as maybe being drug-addled, walking towards him reaching for something in his waistband, and generally just acting suspicious was back there? Does Ayoob say anywhere that a neighborhood watch "captain" should refrain at multiple opportunities from identifying himself before allowing the "suspect" (GZ's word, not mine) to sneak up on him out of the darkness and sucker-punch him?

    These things contributed to what happened. If you can't, or won't, accept that, then God help the people around you when you're carrying a gun. We discuss these cases ad nauseum so that more of us can understand the circumstances that led to the taking of another human being's life. Whether legally justified or not, most of us would much rather learn how to avoid getting in a situation where the only solution is to kill. Unless Massad Ayoob tells you what mistakes Zimmerman made, you're unwilling to hear about them. That is a dangerous combination of willful ignorance and tactical illiteracy.

    Blues
    No one has ever heard me say that I "hate" cops, because I don't. This is why I will never trust one again though: You just never know...

  7. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by K7lvo View Post
    You guys who are so eager, or at least willing, to place part of the blame on Zimmerman need to read this thread:

    http://www.usacarry.com/forums/gener...sad-ayoob.html

    Ayoob doesn't seem to agree with you...
    I agree with ya K7Ivo. The media seems to have done it's job. Not reporting the truth,as usual. Glad those women got it straight though.

  8. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by BluesStringer View Post
    Wow. That makes two posts by you across these two threads where you suggest that no one's opinions are valid unless Massad Ayoob gives them to us.

    So I'll ask again, are you suggesting that all of George Zimmerman's actions on 2/26/12 are above reproach? No scrutiny should be applied by anyone but the jury and Massad Ayoob? And I'll add that the jury doesn't agree with Massad either, except to the extent that he says Zimmerman's actions were not unlawful. The jury didn't (and weren't allowed to) have to decide if his actions were smart, or free from tactical mistakes. If Ayoob really is ignoring all that in his 7-or-8-piece series on the case, he is doing concealed carriers no favors. He's not even doing George Zimmerman any favors if he's absolving him of any responsibility for what happened. It is not apparent to me through the evidence brought out in trial that Zimmerman has a freakin' clue what he could have done to avoid the whole situation, even if the shooting itself was legal, which I believe wholeheartedly that it was. You seem to be suggesting that because Ayoob doesn't speak of some of his actions as being contributory factors, that acknowledging and analyzing them as such, and still believing the shoot was legal, are mutually-exclusive concepts. Please quote Massad Ayoob suggesting such a thing, because if he does, I want to make sure I never listen to another word he says or writes.

    Can you show us anywhere that Ayoob says it was a good tactical decision to walk around with a flashlight with dead batteries (or an intermittently working switch, whatever) in the darkest part of the complex knowing a guy who he described as maybe being drug-addled, walking towards him reaching for something in his waistband, and generally just acting suspicious was back there? Does Ayoob say anywhere that a neighborhood watch "captain" should refrain at multiple opportunities from identifying himself before allowing the "suspect" (GZ's word, not mine) to sneak up on him out of the darkness and sucker-punch him?

    These things contributed to what happened. If you can't, or won't, accept that, then God help the people around you when you're carrying a gun. We discuss these cases ad nauseum so that more of us can understand the circumstances that led to the taking of another human being's life. Whether legally justified or not, most of us would much rather learn how to avoid getting in a situation where the only solution is to kill. Unless Massad Ayoob tells you what mistakes Zimmerman made, you're unwilling to hear about them. That is a dangerous combination of willful ignorance and tactical illiteracy.

    Blues
    Your stance on this issue is a great example of how some of us insist on "shooting our wounded." You've spent a lot of time on this issue criticizing, if not outright condemning, Zimmerman's actions. You can point out mistakes without inferring that he's stupid or worse. His motives were good, and his actions and the outcome (BG dead, GG alive) outweigh his mistakes, by far. Why is it that anyone who doesn't agree with you is a "danger to those around him???" WTH??? (BTW, I had my opinions before I read what Ayoob had to say about it.)

    The person who is WHOLLY responsible for Martin's death is MARTIN. He made the decision to assault Zimmerman, with, IMO, the intent to murder him. Zimmerman did enough things right to turn the tables, had the skin colors not been what they were or had the racists is the whitehouse not been in power, the GG would have went home that night, and the neighborhood would have been safer, and no one outside of Florida would have ever heard about it.
    Lewis - NRA Life - Oregon Firearms Federation - National Assoc. for Gun Rights

    Gun control is NOT about guns, it's about CONTROL.

  9. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by K7lvo View Post
    Your stance on this issue is a great example of how some of us insist on "shooting our wounded."
    I've never shot anybody, and if I ever have to, I hope those with whom I share the details will help me evaluate the situation honestly, even if it means being critical, and under no circumstances whatsoever, would I want anyone to engage in hero-worship of me for taking another human being's life.

    Quote Originally Posted by K7lvo View Post
    You've spent a lot of time on this issue criticizing, if not outright condemning, Zimmerman's actions.
    Absolutely false. I've spent a lot of time criticizing and outrightly condemning those who refuse to accept that he made tactical mistakes leading up to his first face-to-face meeting with Martin. The very fact that he was surprised by that first encounter is all the proof I need that he made mistakes. Your hero-worship of the guy, for some inexplicable reason, is not allowing you to recognize that 100% accurate evaluation.

    Quote Originally Posted by K7lvo View Post
    You can point out mistakes without inferring that he's stupid or worse.
    And apparently you can't read critical after-action evaluations of his actions without inserting your own jaded memes into others' train of thought. I guess that makes sense though, since you don't know the difference between the words "imply" and "infer." You are making inferences based on what you are now claiming I have implied, but what's worse, I specifically said in the other thread that am not implying stupidity or worse on GZ's part. I'm implying that anyone who doesn't learn the lessons from the mistakes he made is stupid and dangerous. Try to keep up here.

    Quote Originally Posted by K7lvo View Post
    His motives were good, and his actions and the outcome (BG dead, GG alive) outweigh his mistakes, by far.
    His mistakes are partly responsible for the outcome! How can the outcome outweigh his own mistakes? Oh, that's right, heroes don't make mistakes, right? Pfft.

    Quote Originally Posted by K7lvo View Post
    Why is it that anyone who doesn't agree with you is a "danger to those around him???" WTH???
    What do you mean by saying "anyone?" I don't think I've ever typed that line in here before. I referred specifically to your refusal to acknowledge mistakes that could have prevented the killing before the situation escalated to the point of it being necessary. If you refuse to learn lessons concerning the foresight to prevent death at your own hand, that seems like a dangerous mindset for someone who carries a gun to have. It has nothing to do with agreeing or disagreeing with me, and everything to do with you engaging in hero-worship and refusing to learn important lessons that could save either yours or someone else's life. How rude of me to care about saving lives, eh? But you keep thinking it has to do with me just being mean to po' po' little Georgie Zimmerman. Get a freakin' clue, wouldja please?

    Quote Originally Posted by K7lvo View Post
    (BTW, I had my opinions before I read what Ayoob had to say about it.)
    Then why do you keep using Ayoob to validate your opinion(s)? I'd be willing to bet that if the three of us sat down and you started whining about me being critical of Zimmerman, and then I gave him my rationale for the critical evaluations I've tried to engage in, he'd tell you to get you man-panties un-bunched and take heed to what I'm saying. I've read enough of Ayoob to know without a doubt that he would advise all civilians to learn safe avoidance of trouble rather than chasing it down.

    Quote Originally Posted by K7lvo View Post
    The person who is WHOLLY responsible for Martin's death is MARTIN.
    Absolute and utter sophistry. That thinking is dangerous to you and everyone around you when you're carrying a gun.

    Quote Originally Posted by K7lvo View Post
    He made the decision to assault Zimmerman, with, IMO, the intent to murder him.
    Oh, because GZ says that TM said, "You're going to die tonight MF'er" that means you can read TM's legal intent? Look Karnac, you don't know the intent of TM any better than any other outside observer does, and claiming that your opinion on that score is substantive in any way makes you look dumber than refusing to learn important lessons about sound tactics does.

    Quote Originally Posted by K7lvo View Post
    Zimmerman did enough things right to turn the tables, had the skin colors not been what they were or had the racists is the whitehouse not been in power, the GG would have went home that night, and the neighborhood would have been safer, and no one outside of Florida would have ever heard about it.
    Finally, something we can agree on. But the only reason we agree is because you had to completely eliminate the five or six minutes that led up to the fight. Including those minutes, Zimmerman made very significant mistakes that put him in the position to be snuck up on and sucker-punched. Keep denying and/or minimizing it and/or ignoring it. Doesn't change the facts that it's 100% true that Zimmerman's mistakes contributed to the outcome.

    Sorry for the cross-posting, but I'm not going to have the same conversation in two or more threads at the same time. So.....

    Quote Originally Posted by K7lvo View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by BluesStringer View Post
    Are you suggesting that all of George Zimmerman's actions on 2/26/12 are above reproach? No scrutiny should be applied by anyone but the jury and Massad Ayoob? I'd be amazed to read where Massad says he would not have identified himself before it all got out of hand. Zimmerman isn't a "co-villain" or stupid, but that doesn't mean some of his actions (or lack thereof) didn't contribute in significant ways to what ultimately happened.

    Blues
    Except for "significant," and that I'm not sure when Zimmerman had the need (many would have called him the instigator had he done so) opportunity to identify himself, I can agree with this.
    As I said above, you accuse me of thinking things that are completely contradicted by what I actually say.

    Aside from that, would you have called him the instigator if he had either identified himself as a neighborhood watchman or contacted him in a friendly, helpful, non-confrontational manner? You keep putting thoughts in everyone else's heads that never said what you're saying here. If he had stayed in his car, rolled down his window enough to be heard saying, "Hey man, Neighborhood Watch over here. Are you visiting someone here, or should I call the police?" If Martin had said, "F-off man, mind your own business," that would've been "acting suspicious" and would've justified calling the police. It would've even justified keeping visual contact with him while on the phone with the cop-shop. Assuming everything else went just the same as GZ says it did, under no circumstances should he have gotten out of the car after telling cops that TM was reaching for something in his waistband and coming towards him to check him out! In fact, if that really happened, just sitting there in his car while this guy who's reaching in his waistband is circling his car, he would've been legally justified if he shot the kid right then and there! Or, as soon as he saw the reach for the waistband, he should've put his truck in gear and moved out of the area. Instead, the guy "skips" 50 yards or so up to the "T" of the sidewalk and disappears out of sight into the darkness. What does your hero do? Goes after the guy who at this point has demonstrated suspicious and threatening behavior, and he does it with a flashlight that doesn't work and doesn't even bother scanning the area as he's walking back to his truck so that he doesn't get surprised out of the darkness by a guy who had something in his waistband just a couple or three minutes before! And you say he made no "significant" mistakes????

    Instead of all that followed identifying himself the way I suggest above, what if Martin had just said, "Yeah man, my dad's fiance lives just around the corner. I was just waiting under this mailbox kiosk for the rain to let up. I'll be fine, thanks for asking." Neighborhood Watch your way on to Target and get your shopping done, George. Nothing to see here. Right? RIGHT?

    Quote Originally Posted by K7lvo View Post
    However, I've got a feeling that anyone who happened to be walking in the vicinity and in a similar direction as Martin that night would have been on the receiving end of Martin's gangbanger violence.
    Now he's a gangbanger???? What evidence do you have of that little bit of posthumous libel? Only your hero and the hoodie-wearing, suspicious, reaching-in-his-waistband Trayvon Martin were out there that night. So now you've not only divined Martin's intent concerning killing Zimmerman if your hero hadn't stopped him first, you've divined out of thin air that he went back there looking for anybody to commit violence on, and that it was all motivated by his status of being a gangbanger! Karnac wishes he were you!

    Quote Originally Posted by K7lvo View Post
    However, as ill prepared or whatever as Zimmermanman may have been, he was equal to the task, and all would have ended satisfactorily, had it not been for the racebaiting power grabbers in the whitehouse, and their lapdog media.
    Of course, all is "satisfactory" as long as the world has been rid of just another gangbanger whose only claimed "suspicious activity" was walking too slow in the rain with only a hood to keep him dry. No after-action evals needed as long as your hero says everything he did that night, he would do again because it was "God's plan." If all that was "God's plan," then it is likewise just as Holy for me to do the evaluation that Zimmerman (and you) refuse to do.

    If that is a "satisfactory" ending to the life of a kid who did nothing illegal for the first four to six minutes of the overall event that night, then you are one sick puppy. Absolutely nothing that I've said on the subject seeks to justify or otherwise support the Sharptons, Jacksons or media hacks of the world getting involved or blowing it out of proportion. In fact, I have consistently spoken against them if I acknowledge them at all, which I don't need to do in order to evaluate what I would hope I (and anybody reading this) had the foresight to not repeat the same mistakes Zimmerman made that contributed to a person dying that night.

    Blues
    No one has ever heard me say that I "hate" cops, because I don't. This is why I will never trust one again though: You just never know...

  10. #19
    I have never called Zimmerman a hero, nor do I believe tha he is one. Martin wasn't a gangbanger? Is gangbanger some kind of official designation, or could one call a druggie, troublemaking, thieving, fighter (MMA, remember?) racist punk a gangbanger? It's been pretty well established that Martin was intent on killing Zimmerman pretty much from the time he assaulted him.

    So now Martin is a KID? Have you been looking at the media's picture of a 12 year old??? You say that Martin did nothing illegal for the first 4-6 minutes - Zimmerman did NOTHING illegal during the entire event, AS DETERMINED BY A JURY. Actually, NOTHING happened until Martin ambushed Zimmerman except for two people walking within a hundred feet or so of each other in the same direction. The determining decision was Martin's when he decided to attack Zimmerman, period.
    Lewis - NRA Life - Oregon Firearms Federation - National Assoc. for Gun Rights

    Gun control is NOT about guns, it's about CONTROL.

  11. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by K7lvo View Post
    I have never called Zimmerman a hero, nor do I believe tha he is one. Martin wasn't a gangbanger? Is gangbanger some kind of official designation, or could one call a druggie, troublemaking, thieving, fighter (MMA, remember?) racist punk a gangbanger? It's been pretty well established that Martin was intent on killing Zimmerman pretty much from the time he assaulted him.

    So now Martin is a KID? Have you been looking at the media's picture of a 12 year old??? You say that Martin did nothing illegal for the first 4-6 minutes - Zimmerman did NOTHING illegal during the entire event, AS DETERMINED BY A JURY. Actually, NOTHING happened until Martin ambushed Zimmerman except for two people walking within a hundred feet or so of each other in the same direction. The determining decision was Martin's when he decided to attack Zimmerman, period.
    Most likely how it happened- of course the media won't let the facts stand in the way. Now it's all about making this work for their agenda- to the media it has now become a question of, "How do we use this to advance anti-2A legislation?"

    It was easy for them to distort the truth- it began when NBC altered the audio of the 911 operator conversing with Zimmerman- and find a villain whose identity they manipulated into being that of a white Hispanic (whatever that is) who went about 'hunting' a known gang member that they portrayed incessantly as a 12 year-old kid instead of the murderous 17 year-old full-grown assailant he really was.
    Highly recommended reading:
    .
    QUANTITATIVE AMMUNITION SELECTION

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