WHY THE JURY DIDN'T LEARN ABOUT TRAYVON MARTIN Part 7 - Page 3
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Thread: WHY THE JURY DIDN'T LEARN ABOUT TRAYVON MARTIN Part 7

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by K7lvo View Post
    I have never called Zimmerman a hero, nor do I believe tha he is one.
    "His motives were good, and his actions and the outcome (BG dead, GG alive) outweigh his mistakes, by far."

    I've agreed with others, maybe even you too, that GZ's motives and intentions were good, but when you over-emphasize that his mistakes are outweighed by the deadly outcome that he contributed to, it sounds like hero-worship at best to me, and an outright break with reality at worst. There are other examples, but my words are only reactions to what you, yourself, have said, and continue to say.

    Quote Originally Posted by K7lvo View Post
    Martin wasn't a gangbanger? Is gangbanger some kind of official designation...
    Well, being a gangbanger usually refers to a member of a umm.....gang. Is there any evidence in the public record of that being true of Martin?

    Quote Originally Posted by K7lvo View Post
    ....or could one call a druggie, troublemaking, thieving, fighter (MMA, remember?) racist punk a gangbanger?
    Hmm....druggie? Check, been there, done that. Troublemaker? Yep, big-time. Thieving, fighter and racist? Nope, not me, but I knew more high school-mates who were those things (and worse) than they themselves would be honest enough to admit to these days. 17 year olds do stupid and self-destructive things. Almost all of them to one degree or another. If you managed to avoid that truism, good for you. Most adolescents aren't that bright though.

    Quote Originally Posted by K7lvo View Post
    It's been pretty well established that Martin was intent on killing Zimmerman pretty much from the time he assaulted him.
    Well established???? You're delusional! Nothing but a fight between Martin and Zimmerman has been *well* established, and even the details of that are sketchy at best. You can deduce from John Good's testimony that GZ was on the bottom and the one who was yelling, but absolutely nothing more about either of their states of mind is "well established!" That idiotic line should disqualify you from ever being a juror anywhere in this country!

    Quote Originally Posted by K7lvo View Post
    So now Martin is a KID? Have you been looking at the media's picture of a 12 year old???
    It's amazing the amount of anger you have for a dead kid. You're damn right Martin was a kid. I quit high school and left home when I was a dumb kid of 16. At 17, after almost a year of trying to make a living with no education and restrictive child labor laws in CA, I was even a dumber kid and joined the Army rather than swallowing my pride and apologizing to my mom for all the heartache I caused her. I came home two years later after getting myself court-martialed for being still a dumber kid, only I brought an addiction home with me. Only when I decided to become an adult did I, and it didn't happen at some magical age between 17 and 19. It happened when I decided to stop getting high, I decided to get training for a job that would make me a living, I decided to quit being an adrenaline junkie, which BTW, was much more dangerous than doing drugs ever was - just ask Trayvon Martin.....oh, wait, you can't, because he didn't get the chance to grow out of his youthful indiscretions. Someone with such a spotless youth as you obviously had, may not be able to empathize with such indiscretions. I can, and do, because I was a dumb kid quite a bit longer than I had a right to expect polite society to be tolerant of. Fortunately for me and my wife though, I didn't get shot for it by someone who thought he was qualified to judge my gang affiliations (none), my intent to murder (never had it, never will) the speed with which I walked (I have had terrible gout since about 21), or the fact that I was wearing a hoodie (an article of clothing that I only started wearing within the last 4 or 5 years, being closer to 60 than 50). But you seem to be able to divine out of thin air that Martin possessed all those negative traits, or that the cover (a hoodie) is enough information from which to judge the book (Trayvon Martin). You must be working off a different public record than the one I've heavily scrutinized in an honest effort to get to the knowable truth. What ain't knowable, should not be spoken. That's another lesson you are having trouble learning.

    Besides knowing what it's like to be a troubled kid, I've made it long enough and paid heavy enough dues in life to call 25 year olds "kids" without taking condescending quips from someone who literally celebrates that another "gangbanging, druggie, thief who 'fully intended' to murder George Zimmerman" found himself freakin' dead before he had the chance to grow out of his delinquencies. And part of that is George Zimmerman's cross to bear. Not the worst or most egregious parts, those are clearly Martin's responsibility because they were both overly-aggressive and illegal, but Zimmerman's mistakes contributed to a dumb kid paying for his dumbness with his life. And just one or two minor adjustments in attitude and/or tactics would have avoided the need for it!

    Quote Originally Posted by K7lvo View Post
    You say that Martin did nothing illegal for the first 4-6 minutes -
    Wrong. The facts of the case says that. Try to keep up.

    Quote Originally Posted by K7lvo View Post
    - Zimmerman did NOTHING illegal during the entire event, AS DETERMINED BY A JURY.
    If I was talking about what Zimmerman did in legal terms, I would be using words like, oh, I don't know, "illegal" maybe? I'm talking about the tactical mistakes he made, and you're too wrapped up in your hero worship to acknowledge that he made any. Pffft.

    Quote Originally Posted by K7lvo View Post
    Actually, NOTHING happened until Martin ambushed Zimmerman except for two people walking within a hundred feet or so of each other in the same direction. The determining decision was Martin's when he decided to attack Zimmerman, period.
    If you want me to agree with you on that score again, fine, you have my agreement. But you're still, for some inexplicable reason, willfully ignoring how many deadly mistakes he made leading up to that point. You want to limit the evaluation of the 45 seconds of a 911 tape and the 8 to 10 seconds that an eye-witness saw and heard, and I'm evaluating the whole event, from beginning to end. You are being willfully ignorant to leave all of that time out of your evaluation. It's flabbergasting that you would resist so vociferously looking at the whole thing just so you can absolve Zimmerman in your own mind of tactical mistakes that everybody knows he made.

    Blues
    No one has ever heard me say that I "hate" cops, because I don't. This is why I will never trust one again though: You just never know...

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  3. #22
    We agree on many thing - this is one case where we"re not going to agree.

    For the record, though, I never said he was a hero, and I do not define doing more things right than wrong and coming out alive as being a hero. I count it as surviving.
    Martin went out looking for trouble. He found it. He tried to beat someone's head in - i.e., MURDER him. You feel "There but for the grace of God go I." Fine. I don't. Also, fine.

    I don't hate Martin. I'm TIRED that society being held hostage and/or victimized by the behavior(s) that he exhibited
    Lewis - NRA Life - Oregon Firearms Federation - National Assoc. for Gun Rights

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  4. #23
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    Howdy,

    Quote Originally Posted by gejoslin View Post

    ZIMMERMAN VERDICT PART 7: WHY THE JURY DIDN’T LEARN ABOUT TRAYVON MARTIN
    Posted: 24 Jul 2013 09:27 AM PDT
    The discovery materials which the defense finally received from the prosecution after a long and arduous fight revealed Trayvon Martin to be deeply into drugs, and a young man who reveled in street fighting, and more. (Didn’t seem to have much respect for women, either.) None of that was allowed in.
    The reason tracks to something found in the Federal Rules of Evidence in the Rule 404 series, particularly Rule 404(b). Among other things, it means that prior bad acts of the person you harmed, IF THEY WERE NOT KNOWN TO YOU AT THE TIME YOU HARMED HIM, cannot be used by you to defend inflicting that harm. This is because, being unknown to you, they had no part in your decision to act as you did, and it is that act and that decision for which you are being judged at trial.
    Some courts have disagreed with that. The Massachusetts State Supreme Court in two precedent cases, and the Arizona State Supreme Court in one, have ruled that if the deceased had attacked people previously a manner similar to how the defendant described being attacked by him, that the jury SHOULD be allowed to know. (There was reference in the discovery materials to Martin having punched out a school bus driver.) There is no such precedent in Florida that I know of. State Supreme Court decisions from other jurisdictions do not bind on other states, but can be used as persuasive argument during a pre-trial motion in limine to allow such evidence.
    Back in 1984, I was on the defense team as an expert witness called by two of the finest attorneys I’ve ever worked with, the great Roy Black and the brilliant Mark Seiden. Mark and I later served two years together as co-vice chairs of the forensic evidence committee of the National Association of Criminal Defense Attorneys, and Roy’s courtroom accomplishments are legend. It would be worth your time to read Roy’s autobiography “Black’s Law.” In the 1984 trial, Roy and Mark defended Miami Police Officer Luis Alvarez against Manslaughter charges in the shooting death of one Nevell “Snake” Johnson. (There were interesting parallels between that case and Zimmerman’s. An officer of Hispanic descent had shot a 20-year-old black man who was reaching for a gun as that officer and another attempted to arrest him. The shooting triggered a race riot. A scapegoat was needed. Janet Reno, then State’s Attorney there, indicted the cop.)
    In that case, the state had portrayed the late Mr. Johnson as a perfect specimen of innocent young manhood, and this is what opened the door for the judge to consider the 40-page memorandum of law that Black and his team put before the bench. The judge set aside 404(b) to allow the defense to rebut that characterization, and the jury got to hear an elderly black woman describe the terror she had experienced when Nevell Johnson had made her the victim of an armed robbery. To make a long story short, Alvarez was acquitted. (Which triggered another race riot, but that’s another story.)
    The lead prosecutor in Zimmerman, Bernie de la Rionda, was too smart to open that door. I understand why Judge Nelson did not allow evidence of prior bad acts by Trayvon Martin to go in front of the jury. Interestingly, though – at the very end of the trial, when it was too late for the defense to do much of anything about it – second seat prosecutor John Guy made the state’s final argument to the jury, a soliloquy rife with references to Martin, who was much taller than the man he attacked, as a “child.” “Child” was also used in this respect by New York City Mayor Michael Bloomberg after the verdict, and was Martin family lawyer Ben Crump’s refrain from the beginning.
    Yet the Trayvon Martin who emerged from the state’s reluctantly-provided evidence, the evidence the jury didn’t see, was something else entirely. (Discovery available here.)
    If Guy, Bloomberg, or Crump had ever met 17-year-old Trayvon Martin in life, and called him a helpless “child” to his face, I strongly suspect Martin would have kicked them in the balls.
    Massad Ayoob » Blog Archive » ZIMMERMAN VERDICT PART 7: WHY THE JURY DIDN?T LEARN ABOUT TRAYVON MARTIN
    You missed a very small piece of info in your post.

    When Team George asked to introduce into evidence Martin's "past" the judge asked Team George if they could prove that the info they wanted to introduce was factual and Team George responded with one very small word........ "No.".

    Just out of idle curiosity.............

    Do you have a new source of "factual" info on Martin or is it the same old BS that's been going around the 'Net?

    I realize that as a married man with a mortgage, kids ( one daughter and a stepson ), real job, etc. that I have a different POV than the "+40yo SWM that lives with his mom and has a "Command Post" in the basement" crowd.

    Paul
    I'm so Liberal that I work at the Bill and Hillary Clinton Regional Airport!

  5. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by desertDog View Post
    “Dispatcher: Are you following him?

    Zimmerman: Yeah.

    Dispatcher: Okay, we don’t need you to do that.
    Zimmerman : "Ok"

    Why leave that out? Does it go against your interpretation of events?

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  6. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stengun View Post
    Howdy,



    You missed a very small piece of info in your post.

    When Team George asked to introduce into evidence Martin's "past" the judge asked Team George if they could prove that the info they wanted to introduce was factual and Team George responded with one very small word........ "No.".

    Just out of idle curiosity.............

    Do you have a new source of "factual" info on Martin or is it the same old BS that's been going around the 'Net?

    I realize that as a married man with a mortgage, kids ( one daughter and a stepson ), real job, etc. that I have a different POV than the "+40yo SWM that lives with his mom and has a "Command Post" in the basement" crowd.

    Paul
    If you would have followed the link you would have seen it was a "cut and paste" from Massad Ayoob. My opinion wasn't in the post. Next time try reading what's there.
    And for your info I'm 61 and have 5 kids and 3 step kids and 11 grandkids. Own 4 houses and NONE have basements! I'm retired from my REAL JOB after 40+ years.
    ~Responsible people who understand that their personal protection is up to them, provide themselves with protection. Those that don't have only themselves to blame.~Proud NRA ~SAF~GoA Member~

  7. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stengun View Post
    Howdy,



    You missed a very small piece of info in your post.

    When Team George asked to introduce into evidence Martin's "past" the judge asked Team George if they could prove that the info they wanted to introduce was factual and Team George responded with one very small word........ "No.".

    Just out of idle curiosity.............

    Do you have a new source of "factual" info on Martin or is it the same old BS that's been going around the 'Net?

    I realize that as a married man with a mortgage, kids ( one daughter and a stepson ), real job, etc. that I have a different POV than the "+40yo SWM that lives with his mom and has a "Command Post" in the basement" crowd.

    Paul
    And that same info might be what gets the prosecution in trouble. The state is facing witholding evidence charges you know.
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  8. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by schadenfreude View Post
    Most likely how it happened- of course the media won't let the facts stand in the way. Now it's all about making this work for their agenda- to the media it has now become a question of, "How do we use this to advance anti-2A legislation?"

    It was easy for them to distort the truth- it began when NBC altered the audio of the 911 operator conversing with Zimmerman- and find a villain whose identity they manipulated into being that of a white Hispanic (whatever that is) who went about 'hunting' a known gang member that they portrayed incessantly as a 12 year-old kid instead of the murderous 17 year-old full-grown assailant he really was.
    Good post! The so-called 'media' stoked the flames from the beginning. (J.Jackson & friends) In addition the Community Relations Service, part of the Dept. of Justice was sent down to Sanford,Fla. for 'technical' assistance in case of riots etc. CRS is not supposed to take sides but 'Judicial Watch' a anti-corruption public policy organization,through the Freedom of Information Act was able to obtain evidence the CRS (DOJ) took an active part in working with those out to hang Zimmerman. The innocent looking Martin was also caught by school police 4 mo. earlier with a back pack full of stolen jewelery. (claimed he was holding it for a 'friend') As I stated in another post, the 'media' has done it's job. Just look at some of the 'media type' posts on this thread.

  9. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Gatherer View Post
    Good post! The so-called 'media' stoked the flames from the beginning. (J.Jackson & friends) In addition the Community Relations Service, part of the Dept. of Justice was sent down to Sanford,Fla. for 'technical' assistance in case of riots etc. CRS is not supposed to take sides but 'Judicial Watch' a anti-corruption public policy organization,through the Freedom of Information Act was able to obtain evidence the CRS (DOJ) took an active part in working with those out to hang Zimmerman. The innocent looking Martin was also caught by school police 4 mo. earlier with a back pack full of stolen jewelery. (claimed he was holding it for a 'friend') As I stated in another post, the 'media' has done it's job. Just look at some of the 'media type' posts on this thread.
    Yeah, I saw them, Gatherer.

    The lamestream media and the racial-grievance brokers are working hand-in-hand to drive deeper the wedge between the races, all in the name of generating higher ratings and create a 'need' for their 'services'. They don't care that by picking off the scab of the slowly healing wound of racial division in order to drive sales, ratings, and justification for their existence that they are also damaging race-relations on a national scale in the process. I've seen an incredible amount of racially-charged animus and name-calling from both sides in the last month and it alarms me that we as a nation can be divided so easily and quickly by those who'd have us at each others' throats just so they (the grievance brokers) can justify their roles.

    'dear leader' and his merry band of miscreants must be laughing at all of us. It is what they want after all.
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  10. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by schadenfreude View Post
    Yeah, I saw them, Gatherer.

    The lamestream media and the racial-grievance brokers are working hand-in-hand to drive deeper the wedge between the races, all in the name of generating higher ratings and create a 'need' for their 'services'. They don't care that by picking off the scab of the slowly healing wound of racial division in order to drive sales, ratings, and justification for their existence that they are also damaging race-relations on a national scale in the process. I've seen an incredible amount of racially-charged animus and name-calling from both sides in the last month and it alarms me that we as a nation can be divided so easily and quickly by those who'd have us at each others' throats just so they (the grievance brokers) can justify their roles.

    'dear leader' and his merry band of miscreants must be laughing at all of us. It is what they want after all.
    I can't understand how the could laugh schadenfreued. Unless as stated..the 'media' has done it's job. Complacency takes over each generation. Dumbing down so to speak. I have seen it in my so-far short life. I am in the same boat as one of the other guy's here. I'm 63, 5 children, just 2 grand children though. Retired 8 yrs. from the same job for 35 yrs. dealing with the public. I've met all kinds. The PC Politicians really leave one shaking their head. The vote is all that counts to them. (a few goodn's though) That's if your vote really counts. To the bus loads..vote and vote often.

  11. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Gatherer View Post
    I can't understand how the could laugh schadenfreued. Unless as stated..the 'media' has done it's job. Complacency takes over each generation. Dumbing down so to speak. I have seen it in my so-far short life. I am in the same boat as one of the other guy's here. I'm 63, 5 children, just 2 grand children though. Retired 8 yrs. from the same job for 35 yrs. dealing with the public. I've met all kinds. The PC Politicians really leave one shaking their head. The vote is all that counts to them. (a few goodn's though) That's if your vote really counts. To the bus loads..vote and vote often.
    I never got those sorts either. 'dear leader' and his ilk strike me as being the same type as Nikita "We will bury you" Khrushchev- they even demonstrate the same smiling hatred for the masses they wish to subjugate.

    As for those who voted for him and then voted for him again...you can't fix stupid. Not even with duct tape.
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