Support for carry permits - Page 2

View Poll Results: Are carry permits a good thing?

Voters
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  • Yes, they are good, all states should have them.

    7 12.73%
  • No, there is nothing good about the government requiring a permit to carry a gun.

    32 58.18%
  • Some benefit: such as providing proof the person carrying the gun is legal to do so.

    16 29.09%
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Thread: Support for carry permits

  1. #11
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
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    Quote Originally Posted by tattedupboy View Post
    Show me where the Constitution denies ANYONE the right to keep and bear arms. No, I don't like the idea of felons carrying guns, but a thorough reading of the Constitution won't reveal anything that denies RKBA to ANYONE for any reason.

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    All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

    Felons can have their Rights stripped away by due process of law. Permit systems are not due process of law. Hence why states with no permit system still make it illegal for felons to obtain guns.

    Sent from my HTCONE using USA Carry mobile app
    “One of the illusions of life is that the present hour is not the critical, decisive one.” – Ralph Waldo Emerson

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  3. #12
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firefighterchen View Post
    All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

    Felons can have their Rights stripped away by due process of law. Permit systems are not due process of law. Hence why states with no permit system still make it illegal for felons to obtain guns.

    Sent from my HTCONE using USA Carry mobile app
    I disagree. The section you quoted applies to prisoners. Felons are not prisoners. They have paid their debt to society and should be treated as the non-prisoners that they are.

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    Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both.

    Benjamin Franklin

  4. #13
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    Apr 2011
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    Quote Originally Posted by tattedupboy View Post
    I disagree. The section you quoted applies to prisoners. Felons are not prisoners. They have paid their debt to society and should be treated as the non-prisoners that they are.

    Sent from my A200 using Tapatalk 4
    I agree. Felons should stay in prison until their debt is paid, and when released if it's safe to do so, should have their Rights restored...unfortunately they release felons well before their debt is repaid. Fixing the justice and prison system though doesn't affect that felons aren't allowed firearms.
    “One of the illusions of life is that the present hour is not the critical, decisive one.” – Ralph Waldo Emerson

  5. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firefighterchen View Post
    I agree. Felons should stay in prison until their debt is paid, and when released if it's safe to do so, should have their Rights restored...unfortunately they release felons well before their debt is repaid. Fixing the justice and prison system though doesn't affect that felons aren't allowed firearms.
    The system isn't perfect, but, once you're out, you're no longer in the custody of the state. That, in my opinion, means you've paid your debt to society. Anyone who has paid their debt to society should be treated as the free person he or she is. Freedom should NEVER be conditional.

    Sent from my A200 using Tapatalk 4
    Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both.

    Benjamin Franklin

  6. #15
    I didn't say that the Constitution denies anyone to carry a gun. I said "do you think that a felon should be allowed to carry a gun."
    There's a LOT that the Constitution didn't take into account when it was drafted many years ago. This is a much different world now.

    Problem now is that criminals have too many rights and LEO's have too little rights.
    Every time you call Tech Support, a kitten dies...

  7. #16
    ezkl2230 Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Bikenut View Post
    The following isn't exactly what you are looking for NavyLCDR yet your post hit one of my nerves.............

    A rant...............

    I personally hate carry permits with a passion simply because when the government is in control of issuing permits to be "allowed" to exercise a right then....

    you don't have a right... all you have is....................................... permission to be allowed to indulge in a government controlled privilege.

    And he who is in control of who is given, or denied, permission is..............................

    in control.

    Power comes from the barrel of a gun. He who has a gun has the power to either dominate.... or defend from being dominated. And when the government is in control of who is "allowed" to have the power that comes from the barrel of a gun you can be damn sure the government will eventually make sure that only those the government considers "acceptable" has permits and the power.

    As it is... poor people who cannot afford to pay for the concealed carry classes that are mandated in order to qualify for a permit... and can't afford the fee for the permit... are automatically discriminated against just because................... they are poor.

    But then... that is the whole purpose of a permit system... to ensure only those who are able to meet the qualifications (are acceptable) will be "allowed" to exercise their right to bear arms in a concealed manner.

    The entire concept of the government being in control of a permit system that discriminates against people, especially an entire social group... the poor, being able to exercise their right to bear arms in any manner, is the very essence of "infringed".

    And the sad thing is how many folks have fallen for the lie that a permit system prevents criminals from carrying guns.... why is it so hard for folks to understand that criminals are criminals because... they do not obey the law. And since criminals don't obey the law why in the pluperfect hell would anyone think those criminals are going to obey the concealed carry laws? I mean... DUH already!!!

    In the interest of my personal integrity... I do have a carry permit for one reason... to stay out of jail. I cannot fight for the right to bear arms from a jail cell as well as I can when I am free. In my perfect world Michigan would join the other States that have Constitutional carry where no permits are required for any manner of carry.

    End rant...
    We're still working on getting Constitutional carry passed, but considering the opposition from the east side of the state and our illustrious nerd, anti-Second Amendment governor, that isn't likely to happen any time soon. And if the balance of power in the state legislature changes next election or we get a democrat governor, look for things to go downhill quickly in Michigan.

  8. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefighterchen View Post
    I agree. Felons should stay in prison until their debt is paid, and when released if it's safe to do so, should have their Rights restored...unfortunately they release felons well before their debt is repaid. Fixing the justice and prison system though doesn't affect that felons aren't allowed firearms.
    Do you have any concept on how many felons re-offend when they're out of jail? Or how many of them continue with lifelong substance abuse problems and have sociopathic behaviors that never get counseling and/or fail to comply with taking their prescription meds? Just because they "pay their debt" to society in a jail doesn't mean they're cured from being a danger to society. Granted, if they want to get their hands on a gun they probably will someway or somehow regardless but having their "rights restored" is just outrageous to me.

  9. Quote Originally Posted by dad45acp View Post
    Do you have any concept on how many felons re-offend when they're out of jail? Or how many of them continue with lifelong substance abuse problems and have sociopathic behaviors that never get counseling and/or fail to comply with taking their prescription meds? Just because they "pay their debt" to society in a jail doesn't mean they're cured from being a danger to society. Granted, if they want to get their hands on a gun they probably will someway or somehow regardless but having their "rights restored" is just outrageous to me.
    So... back to my original question. How does a carry permit system keep felons and mentally ill from carrying guns? What good does the carry permit system do? To me, the only thing it does is require me to pay to prove my innocence to the government. (Regardless of whether or not we think they should have the right to carry).
    Anyone who says, "I support the 2nd amendment, BUT"... doesn't. Element of Surprise: a mythical element that many believe has the same affect upon criminals that Kryptonite has upon Superman.

  10. Quote Originally Posted by CharlesMorrison View Post
    Sorry bro but I'm in Vermont. We don't deal with that issue...
    But you are in a unique position to provide an answer to my original question. Please list for us all the problems that you have in Vermont that having a carry permit requirement would solve. I'll bet I can guess what your answer is :-)
    Anyone who says, "I support the 2nd amendment, BUT"... doesn't. Element of Surprise: a mythical element that many believe has the same affect upon criminals that Kryptonite has upon Superman.

  11. Quote Originally Posted by Firefighterchen View Post
    Do you really think a permit system makes it illegal for felons to carry guns? Think about this, in states that do not have a permit system, felons can't have guns either. So who exactly are permits controlling...felons or citizens? Denial of a permit stops who exactly, felons or citizens?
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefighterchen View Post
    Felons can have their Rights stripped away by due process of law. Permit systems are not due process of law. Hence why states with no permit system still make it illegal for felons to obtain guns.
    And those are the best points of all.
    Anyone who says, "I support the 2nd amendment, BUT"... doesn't. Element of Surprise: a mythical element that many believe has the same affect upon criminals that Kryptonite has upon Superman.

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