What do the laws say? - Page 2
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Thread: What do the laws say?

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by netentity View Post
    Keep in mind that in a situation you do not know the players. If no one has been harmed yet, it is best to let the subject go. It may be an undercover LEO for all you know acting like they're robbing the place or apprehending a fujitive. If all they're doing is taking the money and running, it's not your job to intervene. You also risk civil liability if one of your bullets hits an innocent bystander or damages property even if it goes through the subject, stops them and keeps on going and kills someone else. Anything a bullet from your firearm touches after it comes out of the barrel you own.

    If you're in a situation where you may be another victim such as the Trolley Square incident in SLC Utah then yes, intervene because if you don't, you'll end up getting an honorable mention on a real life episode of CSI.

    Also keep in mind that the laws very greatly from State to State concerning use of lethal force and civil liability associated with using it. In FL or MO, you wouldn't have an issue because of their stand your ground statutes. If the shooting is justifiable and all of your rounds went into the subject that you justifiably used force against you should not have an issue in FL or MO. However, you may have an issue in your State and definitely an issue in States with no castle doctrine law.
    +1 on everything here. ALL this was taught in my NRA courses I took. But at least now You have an idea of where You're standing ground.
    Here's one.............You are walking OR driving and you see a female being forced to the ground by a male Maybe at gunpoint and She is struggling OR screaming rape, etc. Do You pull your weapon/s out on the male? The male could be an undercover LEO arresting a prostitute/warrant on Her/etc. YOU do not know. You make very good points but only YOU can make the call. It's not easy making a decision or checking out the entire scenario in a split second. Read over again and take in the above quote.
    (All the above are MY opinions/suggestions ONLY....AND, I like to bust ball's, it's called having a sense of humor. In other words, no intent to offend anyone, so get over it)

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  3. #12
    What I will do depends on a number of things. If my family is with me my first duty is to get them to a safe place if I can. If I am alone or they are safe and I have the ability to terminate the attack I will probably do what I can. I can not stand by and watch the slaughter of innocent people if I have the ability to stop it.
    Last edited by HK4U; 08-28-2008 at 01:49 PM.
    By faith Noah,being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear,prepared an ark to the saving of his house;by the which he condemned the world,and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith Heb.11:7

  4. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by sambo42xa View Post
    +1 on everything here. ALL this was taught in my NRA courses I took. But at least now You have an idea of where You're standing ground.
    Here's one.............You are walking OR driving and you see a female being forced to the ground by a male Maybe at gunpoint and She is struggling OR screaming rape, etc. Do You pull your weapon/s out on the male? The male could be an undercover LEO arresting a prostitute/warrant on Her/etc. YOU do not know. You make very good points but only YOU can make the call. It's not easy making a decision or checking out the entire scenario in a split second. Read over again and take in the above quote.
    Have your firearm ready just in case but not displayed, get your cell with your non-dominate hand and yell "I'm calling 91!." If it's a LEO affecting an arrest, they should ID themselves as such. In which case you call 911 anyway and ask a marked unit to assist. You're probably doing the LEO a favor by getting them backup or a marked vehicle to transport the suspect.

    If male turns and charges towards you, it's most likely not a LEO in which case you point the firearm and fire. If the male aggressor just runs, be a good witness and assist the female by calling 911 and getting LEOs and EMTs out there. You've also done the female a favor in this instance.

    By getting your cell phone ready and yelling, "I'm calling 911!" you are drawing the aggressor's attention in the situation to you so you can hopefully better identify the players. Proper use of a cell phone and your voice can be a very effective self defense tool.

    If you're confortable using these techniques to assess the situation better then by all means do so.

    Only use your firearm to defend a 3rd person if you know the 3rd person or you know for sure who the players are. If you don't, use some technique or distraction to find out who the players are.

    Only intervene if you are comfortable doing so and you are certain who the players are.
    Know the law; don't ask, don't tell.
    NRA & UT Certified Instructor; CT, FL, NH, NV, OR, PA & UT CCW Holder
    Happy new 1984; 25 years behind schedule. Send lawyers, guns and money...the SHTF...

  5. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by netentity View Post
    Have your firearm ready just in case but not displayed, get your cell with your non-dominate hand and yell "I'm calling 91!." If it's a LEO affecting an arrest, they should ID themselves as such. In which case you call 911 anyway and ask a marked unit to assist. You're probably doing the LEO a favor by getting them backup or a marked vehicle to transport the suspect.

    If male turns and charges towards you, it's most likely not a LEO in which case you point the firearm and fire. If the male aggressor just runs, be a good witness and assist the female by calling 911 and getting LEOs and EMTs out there. You've also done the female a favor in this instance.

    By getting your cell phone ready and yelling, "I'm calling 911!" you are drawing the aggressor's attention in the situation to you so you can hopefully better identify the players. Proper use of a cell phone and your voice can be a very effective self defense tool.

    If you're confortable using these techniques to assess the situation better then by all means do so.

    Only use your firearm to defend a 3rd person if you know the 3rd person or you know for sure who the players are. If you don't, use some technique or distraction to find out who the players are.

    Only intervene if you are comfortable doing so and you are certain who the players are.
    +1 netentity. In the scenario of the robbery, if I hear someone yell "give me all the money or I'm going to blow you F'n head off" while pointing a gun at a cashier itís safe to say thatís not a cop. Also he's flat out told you his intentions. Like said before, in Florida I'd be justified to use deadly force in that scenario. I personally think I would. Must likely I have a tactical advantage being behind the actor with his attention on the cashier. So I should be able to get a well aim shot off before he realizes whatís going on.

    In the Mass shooting scenario, if someone is walking around shooting people at random again justified to shoot without worry of it being a cop. If I was in harms way or in the position to stop the threat I believe I would try my best to do so. On the same token I'm not going to go running to the other side of the mall, gun in hand, trying to find the shooter.

    Other scenario's such as someone being held at gun point, Holding someone down, chasing someone, ect. Itís better to be a good witness and call 911. Here is a scenario that was given to us during my CCW class that was a real life event. You're driving down the road and see a petite white woman running screaming for help. A few strides behind her is a much larger black male chasing her. What do you do? Must people said they'd step in and try to help. Some said they'd try to hit the male with there car. One said they'd be a good witness. Well, the black male ended up being an under cover narcotics officer that was chasing a suspect that just ripped them off on a drug deal. So just keep that story in the back of your mind when deciding to step in to help a third party.
    "When Government fears the people, it's liberty. When people fear the Government, it's tyranny."
    - Benjamin Franklin

  6. Also all the events that take place at the crime are charged to the perp.In florida the perp that caused the events is responceable for them.

  7. #16
    WOW this topic just keeps getting more and more great feedback i love it!!! I also like that i am not alone and most would do the same. As i do not live in FL i could not just pull my gun and shoot the guy's/girl's. I really love that story about the drug deal with the Narc cop that was great. As if you had stepped in and shot the guy you would turn into a cop killer in like 5sec. Love the feedback i am getting keep it coming.

    THEY MAY TAKE OUR LIVES BUT THEY'LL NEVER TAKE OUR FREEDOM!!!!!

  8. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwo51 View Post
    Also all the events that take place at the crime are charged to the perp.In florida the perp that caused the events is responceable for them.
    While that is true, I would still feel horrible if I did shoot and kill a FL LEO acting in their official capacity during a legitimate arrest or investigation even if I was protected under FL law and not charged with a crime.

    Also keep in mind that there is a high probability that such an incident would be tried in court as defense of a 3rd person is under even higher scrutiny during a homicide investigation.

    Even if you are not charged and the shooting was justifiable you still have to look at yourself in the mirror in the next morning. There have been incidents of civilians, LEOs and military involved in justifiable self defense incidents going off the deep end. The decision to pull the trigger is one not to be taken lightly. Make sure it is a justifiable action for the given event so you don't second guess yourself.

    I also tell my students this. If you're involved in such an incident, get professional counseling. You may have survived physically and quite possibly unharmed at all but the post traumatic stress disorder can eat you alive.
    Know the law; don't ask, don't tell.
    NRA & UT Certified Instructor; CT, FL, NH, NV, OR, PA & UT CCW Holder
    Happy new 1984; 25 years behind schedule. Send lawyers, guns and money...the SHTF...

  9. That is the question will you when you need to. We all have to ask ourselves and yes pst is a bigger problem now than at WW11. We treat even hardened criminals as nice little fellows,not monsters.We were taught the Gooks were monsters and we came home to a country that love them. That caused PST>

  10. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by KimberPB View Post
    +1 netentity. In the scenario of the robbery, if I hear someone yell "give me all the money or I'm going to blow you F'n head off" while pointing a gun at a cashier itís safe to say thatís not a cop. Also he's flat out told you his intentions. Like said before, in Florida I'd be justified to use deadly force in that scenario. I personally think I would. Must likely I have a tactical advantage being behind the actor with his attention on the cashier. So I should be able to get a well aim shot off before he realizes whatís going on.

    In the Mass shooting scenario, if someone is walking around shooting people at random again justified to shoot without worry of it being a cop. If I was in harms way or in the position to stop the threat I believe I would try my best to do so. On the same token I'm not going to go running to the other side of the mall, gun in hand, trying to find the shooter.

    Other scenario's such as someone being held at gun point, Holding someone down, chasing someone, ect. Itís better to be a good witness and call 911. Here is a scenario that was given to us during my CCW class that was a real life event. You're driving down the road and see a petite white woman running screaming for help. A few strides behind her is a much larger black male chasing her. What do you do? Must people said they'd step in and try to help. Some said they'd try to hit the male with there car. One said they'd be a good witness. Well, the black male ended up being an under cover narcotics officer that was chasing a suspect that just ripped them off on a drug deal. So just keep that story in the back of your mind when deciding to step in to help a third party.

    Let's just hope that doesn't ever happen in real life. It's safe to say that the average law abiding citizen would probably step out and intervene. And what if the person intervening is himself a police officer? The guy running after most likely, if he doesn't flash his badge in a timely manner, would end up face down on the ground or even dead.

  11. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by tattedupboy View Post
    Well, the black male ended up being an under cover narcotics officer that was chasing a suspect that just ripped them off on a drug deal. So just keep that story in the back of your mind when deciding to step in to help a third party.
    Let's just hope that doesn't ever happen in real life. It's safe to say that the average law abiding citizen would probably step out and intervene. And what if the person intervening is himself a police officer? The guy running after most likely, if he doesn't flash his badge in a timely manner, would end up face down on the ground or even dead.

    It did happen in Real Life (similarly)

    In Rhode Island, a Black male tried to assist in apprehending a guy running from police officers, the black male drew a weapon to force the suspect to comply, the Black male was shot and killed by the other police officers, the Black male was an off-duty police officer that heard about the suspect over his radio ( I think ) ..

    Story is here ( DOJ: CRS: Fatal Police Shooting )
    On January 27, 2000, an off-duty Black police officer, son of the highest ranking minority in the city police department, was shot and killed by two White police officers in Providence, Rhode Island. The incident occurred outside a local restaurant, where one of two women engaged in an altercation asked an Hispanic male friend to get his gun. The Black off-duty officer, who was apparently attempting to assist the policemen responding to the scene, was shot by White police officers under ambiguous circumstances.
    Some people after getting their CCW, believes they are now police officers

    I say, let the police do the job that they are paid to do.
    Stay out the way.

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