Why carry at church? LA Pastor shot, killed during service....
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Thread: Why carry at church? LA Pastor shot, killed during service....

  1. #1
    ezkl2230 Guest

    Why carry at church? LA Pastor shot, killed during service....

    The shooter, with no prior criminal record, shot the pastor with a shotgun once during his sermon, and a second time at point blank range after the pastor fell. It appears that he walked out of the church unopposed and later called law enforcement to turn himself in Louisiana pastor shot and killed during sermon, suspect in custody - U.S. News.

    There were 145 church shootings in 2012, up from just 90 the previous year. It used to be that churches were sanctuaries from such violence; after all, they represent the presence of God here on earth.

    These days, however, when many blame God for their situations and have been told that they cannot sue God, an attack on church property is the most convenient way to strike back at God.

    The same arguments that apply to other gun free zones apply to churches as well these days. If you do not allow people to carry, you open yourself up to attack. The possibility of making parishioners uncomfortable can no longer be the primary focus of church leadership; the primary function of the shepherd is to PROTECT his flock - and not just spiritually.

    I posted a brief theology of church/personal security on my blog 2 years ago:

    One of the hot button topics of our day is the idea of allowing concealed carry in churches. For some, this represents the ultimate expression of paranoia. After all, the church is the one place where one should feel safe. For others, the idea of allowing firearms in the church seems to fly in the face of implicit trust in God for our protection.

    And yet, while Jesus did in fact teach that there are circumstances under which we turn the other cheek, there is a Biblical basis for armed church and personal security.

    Going back to the Old Testament, 1 Chronicles 9 details the decision made jointly between King David and the Prophet Samuel to establish a temple guard corps, a select group of men entrusted with the physical security of the tabernacle (and later, the temple), its treasuries, and its utensils. These men guarded the entrances of the House of God to insure both the sanctity of the meeting place and the security of those taking part in the worship activities. They accounted for the utensils used in the worship ceremonies, checking them in and out each day. They guarded the finances and foodstuffs. So while God is ultimately responsible for the defense of His house, David and Samuel recognized that we live in a fallen world in which God expects us to take those actions that are consistent with security and protection. This is a principle laid out in Proverbs: "The prudent sees danger and hides himself, but the simple go on and suffer for it." A literal translation of the term, "hides", indicates covering one's self, taking those steps that are consistent with protecting one's self from impending trouble or danger.

    OK, but that was the Old Testament. The New Testament tells us to turn the other cheek.

    Again, this is true - to a point.

    As was stated earlier, Jesus did teach that there are circumstances under which turning the other cheek is the most appropriate response. But the same Jesus who gave this teaching also commanded His disciples to arm themselves for their own protection. Luke 22 gives the account of the hours preceding the crucifixion of Jesus, specifically, the time He spent in the Garden of Gethsemane immediately preceding His arrest. An interesting exchange took place between Jesus and His disciples in verses 35-36:

    And he said to them, "When I sent you out with no moneybag or knapsack or sandals, did you lack anything?"

    They said, "Nothing."
    He said to them, "But now let the one who has a moneybag take it, and likewise a knapsack. And let the one who has no sword sell his cloak and buy one.

    Notice what isn't - and then what is - covered here.

    Jesus began by reminding the disciples that when He sent them out on an earlier missionary quest, everything was to be provided for them. They were to take nothing with them - no money, knapsack, sandals. Not even their staves. This is significant. The staff wasn't just to assist them in traversing the rugged terrain, it was also a means of defense. The reformer John Knox was known to have been a master of the staff, and he is reputed to have laid out a number of highwaymen during his years of travel. But for the disciples, for their first quest, everything was completely in the hands of God. With His impending death, however, something changed. I don't claim to fully understand why the change was necessary; God is still, ultimately, the one who provides everything, including protection, for us. I simply acknowledge that something changed. As Jesus readied the disciples to live in a world in which He was no longer physically present with them, He gave them a new mandate - with one significant addition. Going forward, they were to make provision for funding, clothing, shoes -- and personal protection. This last addition was so important that Jesus, the same one who taught us to turn the other cheek at times, commanded His disciples to sell some of their clothing if necessary to provide it. His command had nothing to do with forestalling or repelling His impending arrest and death; the soldiers were already on their way at that moment. Jesus understood that He was sending His disciples into a fallen world that was going to go from bad to worse, and that, while God is ultimately in control, there is still a human responsibility to provide for our own defense.

    Is God ultimately the one who provides our protection? Absolutely. Did God entrust human government with the responsibility of providing a level of protection? Again, the answer is yes. Romans 13 teaches this clearly. And yet, none of this negates our personal responsibility to provide for the protection of ourselves, our families, and our churches. So when human government continues to diminish the level of protection it provides, more of that responsibility falls on the individual. Thankfully, we live in a country whose Constitution explicitly recognizes that God has granted us the right to defend ourselves. The right protected by our Constitution to bear arms in our own defense is consistent with the command given by Jesus Himself.


    This has been an ongoing conversation between me and my pastor. If you haven't broached the subject with your own church leadership, isn't it about time?

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  3. #2
    I feel that concealed carry in church is fine. With Christians being targeted around the world now is not the time to leave your weapons in the safe.
    No one needs to know you have a gun until you need to use your gun.
    I do not believe however that anyone could have saved that Pastors life.
    A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state,
    the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.

  4. #3
    Join Date
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    Any church is nothing more than a religious gathering place for like minded people. It's not a safe haven. Gun free zones are fast becoming easy pickings for those that have a grudge against society.
    "You can get a lot accomplished if you don't care who gets the credit" - Ronald Reagan

  5. #4
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    My pastor and I have had some great conversations about instituting security procedures. He is thankful that I carry. Some of the conversations I have had with them were fueled by some of the things I have read on this forum. Thanks to you ezkl for your words today.
    "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote."
    ~ Benjamin Franklin (maybe)

  6. Quote Originally Posted by Kramer1113 View Post
    I feel that concealed carry in church is fine. With Christians being targeted around the world now is not the time to leave your weapons in the safe.
    No one needs to know you have a gun until you need to use your gun.
    I do not believe however that anyone could have saved that Pastors life.
    Can I ask you to elaborate on what appears to be a strong stance for concealed carry, as opposed to open carry?
    Last edited by Kenneth Baucum; 09-29-2013 at 05:14 PM. Reason: Corrected typo.

  7. #6
    ezkl2230 Guest
    [QUOTE=Kramer1113I do not believe however that anyone could have saved that Pastors life.[/QUOTE]

    If a church has done nothing to prepare itself, then you're probably right, which is why churches need to be more proactive about security, whether they choose to employ armed members or not. There is always something they can do. But doing nothing is no longer acceptable. Yes, there may be times when God requires believers to sacrifice themselves, but until that day arrives we still have a responsibility to participate in our own security as part of the Divine/human cooperative.

  8. #7
    Join Date
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kenneth Baucum View Post
    Can I ask you to elaborate on what appears to be a strong stance for concealed carry, as opposed to open carry?
    If you would like to debate open vs. concealed carry in churches, there are a few that are going on currently. You are only the 5th post and offered nothing concerning the OP.
    http://www.usacarry.com/forums/open-...ry-church.html
    http://www.usacarry.com/forums/open-...or-church.html
    "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote."
    ~ Benjamin Franklin (maybe)

  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Kramer1113 View Post
    I feel that concealed carry in church is fine. With Christians being targeted around the world now is not the time to leave your weapons in the safe.
    No one needs to know you have a gun until you need to use your gun.
    I do not believe however that anyone could have saved that Pastors life.
    Less to do with Christians being targeted than law abiding citizens. Drop your first two lines and this is sound advice for anyone anywhere. The crazy is everywhere -be armed, be ready.
    Si vis pacem para bellum

  10. #9
    I carry at my church. I have talked to my pastor and he is not opposed to CCW in church (live in Florida) and we have several that do.

  11. #10
    Don't ask, don't tell. It's better to ask for forgiveness than permission.
    War to the Knife, Knife to the hilt.
    If we don't want to live in a trashy area, we all have to be willing to help pick up the trash.

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