Two school shootings this week....
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Thread: Two school shootings this week....

  1. #1
    ezkl2230 Guest

    Two school KILLINGS this week....

    The week of October 26, 2013.


    First, Nevada. Two days later, a Massachusetts teacher is murdered on school grounds.


    "...there are really only two choices for protecting open societies from attacks like the one on Westgate mall where so-called 'soft targets' are hit: either create secure perimeters around the locations or allow civilians to carry their own guns to protect themselves.
    'Societies have to think about how they're going to approach the problem,' Noble said. 'One is to say we want an armed citizenry; you can see the reason for that. Another is to say the enclaves are so secure that in order to get into the soft target you're going to have to pass through extraordinary security...

    How do you protect soft targets? That's really the challenge. You can't have armed police forces everywhere...


    What I'm saying is it makes police around the world question their views on gun control. It makes citizens question their views on gun control. You have to ask yourself, 'Is an armed citizenry more necessary now than it was in the past with an evolving threat...'"
    Ron K. Noble, Secretary General, Interpol
    Exclusive: After Westgate, Interpol Chief Ponders 'Armed Citizenry'


    Providing "extraordinary security" for schools is a practical and financial impossibility. It is too expensive, and there have been cases where school shootings take place outside the buildings where metal detectors and bag searches are going to find nothing. Half-mile gun free zones around schools have stopped nothing.


    It is time to admit that the gun free school zones experiment, which has been ongoing for over twenty years, is a complete and utter failure and let teachers, staff, and parents defend themselves and their students.


    Period.


    This IS the common sense approach.

    Do "Gun-Free" Zones Encourage School Shootings? by Larry Elder on Creators.com - A Syndicate Of Talent
    Last edited by ezkl2230; 10-24-2013 at 04:37 PM. Reason: Title was incorrect, has been corrected

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  3. #2
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    All this has nothing to do with gun control and has everything to do with juvenile and adult behavior--something that is NOT legislatable (if there is such a word). Liberals and dems and progressives and communists etal are only interested in government control and your behavior, before the fact cannot be controlled, especially if you are insane or unbalanced in some way. Owning a firearm is a finite real thing and, therefore is controllable--the human mind and its thought process is not. Not sure if arming teachers and/or supervisors is a great idea--firstly--more costs for already burdened school systems and a virtual nightmare of conflicting entities when police arrive at scene and have seconds to wonder whether that agitated ill trained adult is an adversary or the BG. A school security officer(s) and secure access, which is time consuming (how long do you wait to get on a plane?) are a moderate solution.

  4. #3
    ezkl2230 Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by kelcarry View Post
    All this has nothing to do with gun control and has everything to do with juvenile and adult behavior--something that is NOT legislatable (if there is such a word). Liberals and dems and progressives and communists etal are only interested in government control and your behavior, before the fact cannot be controlled, especially if you are insane or unbalanced in some way. Owning a firearm is a finite real thing and, therefore is controllable--the human mind and its thought process is not. Not sure if arming teachers and/or supervisors is a great idea--firstly--more costs for already burdened school systems and a virtual nightmare of conflicting entities when police arrive at scene and have seconds to wonder whether that agitated ill trained adult is an adversary or the BG. A school security officer(s) and secure access, which is time consuming (how long do you wait to get on a plane?) are a moderate solution.
    And until you can find a way to control the uncontrollable, you have to let people defend themselves. Telling them they cannot carry in self defense in a prescribed area is the very definition of gun control.

  5. #4
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    And as the police have no duty to protect you the individual, that pretty much makes the GFZs illegal.
    NRA Certified Pistol Instructor
    NRA Certified RSO
    Normal is an illusion. What is normal to the spider is chaos to the fly.

  6. My thoughts are that when you look at all of the cases where a school shooting has occurred, 99% of the time we find out that the shooter has been, was or is a student or past student who is on some sort of medication for depression, psychosis, ADHD or whatever it may be. The problem arises when parents want to school to raise our kids and not taking responsibility of their own to do it themselves. I have young kids in school and one of my daughters is very hyper active and I know if I took her to a doctor they would prescribe her a medicine to calm her down. I work a full time job as well as a part time business and my wife works a small business too and yet we have time to be parents with our kids. I take my kids running with me or we exercise together and guess what it helps burn off her energy and she has been doing better at school. Me and my wife restrict what our kids watch on t.v which is very minimal anyways, we sit down with them and help them with homework, we are not perfect and I know there are a lot of parents who have different living situations but when you come down to the brass tax of things if comes down to the parents of these kids raising them correctly and not letting society, t.v. , the internet, video games to raise them for us, when society raises our kids you get what you see on the news about children getting killed at school because they were on meds, played violent video games...etc... Our government turns a blind eye to the real problem and focuses only on gun control as the issue when these tragic events happen.

  7. #6

    GFZ don't work, going armed can.

    The quote "An armed society is a polite society" gives meaning to the current fight about gun control. With the down grade of mental health care available there are more people in need of help in mainstream society, with people resisting treatment so not to be labeled for any number of reasons there are more people in need of help that won't seek it because of the ramifications that go along with the treatment.
    ~
    This places upon society the greater need to be prepared to defend one's self and their loved ones, there has always been that requirement but today's society and those in society that would do you harm have heightened our need to present a defensive posture. In order to maintain that posture we must fight all attempts by any government level in the country of restricting further our ability to protect ourselves defensively.
    ~
    Maintaining a defensive posture will not work in a society that imposes GFZ's willy nilly on places that the public congregate for what ever reason. We all know from history that these are killing grounds for anyone that wants to inflict harm against society, society has a right to be safe anywhere they may travel and they will not be safe without being armed and prepared to defend themselves. People who wish us harm do not follow the laws in place to so call protect us and with that said I refer to my quote "An armed society is a polite society".
    I'd rather be a Conservative Nutjob. Than a Liberal with NO Nuts & NO Job

  8. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by kelcarry View Post
    All this has nothing to do with gun control
    Legislated, mandated and punishable by fines and imprisonment or both laws creating GFZs have "nothing to do with gun control???" Come on man. How can you pass that off as valid commentary on GFZs?

    Quote Originally Posted by kelcarry View Post
    Not sure if arming teachers and/or supervisors is a great idea--firstly--more costs for already burdened school systems....
    I'm sure there are exceptions to the rule, but generally-speaking, jurisdictions that are contemplating lessening or eliminating the prohibitions in GFZ laws are not going to incur any expense, because all they're trying to accomplish is allowing citizens who happen to be employees in schools to carry while at work. The goal is to get government out of prohibiting that which "shall not be infringed," not to create another layer of paid quasi-law-enforcement types, or a beauracracy to oversee the teachers, administrators and even janitors who will be doing nothing more nefarious than exercising their right to defend themselves, the students who are in their charge, and their communities and states, exactly as contemplated by the Framers who wrote the 2nd Amendment.

    Quote Originally Posted by kelcarry View Post
    ....and a virtual nightmare of conflicting entities when police arrive at scene and have seconds to wonder whether that agitated ill trained adult is an adversary or the BG.
    Wow. This is an impossible obstacle to overcome? First of all, in nearly every case in schools, the shooting is over before the cops get there, or the shooter offs himself when he sees/hears them arrive. Secondly, for the rare cases where that's not true and it's still an active shooter scenario when the cops get there, there is no reason that a system of identification can't be coordinated between LE and school employees, like maybe requiring armed employees to put a lanyard style employee ID hanging off their necks, or a prearranged password, or disaster-plan training that instructs the employees how and where to shelter in place when the cops get there - whatever - it isn't an insurmountable issue where cooperative people can't figure out how to identify themselves. How do plain clothes detectives do it when their uniformed backup arrives on scene?

    I just don't get why anyone would go looking for excuses to deny willing and able people the ability to protect themselves and the children in the schools where they're employed. It makes no logical sense to me at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by kelcarry View Post
    A school security officer(s) and secure access, which is time consuming (how long do you wait to get on a plane?) are a moderate solution.
    And allowing permission-slip-holders to carry the same weapon they're going to strap on as soon as they leave the school while at work is an "extreme" solution I suppose?

    "I would remind you that extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice! And let me remind you also that moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue!" Barry Goldwater - 1964.

    "Moderate" solution to child-killing. Pffft.

    Blues
    No one has ever heard me say that I "hate" cops, because I don't. This is why I will never trust one again though: You just never know...

  9. #8
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    I carry in my kids school all the time. in Utah, it is legal for CCW permit holders to carry concealed in "Public" schools. However I would suggest that you do this responsibly as all it takes is for one person or kid to yell "GUN" to cause you a huge hours long headache dealing with police and such.


  10. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by CoolClownFish View Post
    I carry in my kids school all the time. in Utah, it is legal for CCW permit holders to carry concealed in "Public" schools. However I would suggest that you do this responsibly as all it takes is for one person or kid to yell "GUN" to cause you a huge hours long headache dealing with police and such.
    Are your school's employees allowed to carry during work hours?
    No one has ever heard me say that I "hate" cops, because I don't. This is why I will never trust one again though: You just never know...

  11. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by BluesStringer View Post
    Are your school's employees allowed to carry during work hours?
    I would assume so but I do not know for sure. I would also assume it's the school district that is stopping them if any.

    Here is what is on Utah's BCI Website

    As a permit holder, exactly, where can I carry or not carry a handgun? The concealed firearm permit allows an individual to carry a firearm fully loaded and concealed. The permit also allows an individual to carry a firearm into public schools. Permit holders can not carry a firearm into federal or state restricted areas i.e. any airport secured area, federal facilities, courts, correctional & mental health facilities, law enforcement secured areas, a house of worship or private residence where notice given and/or posted, any secured area in which firearms are prohibited and notice posted, or otherwise prohibited by state of federal law.
    There is a lot more info on there about other situations too if your interested.


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