Do we really need TOY GUNS? - Deputy Shoots and Kills teen! - Page 2
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Thread: Do we really need TOY GUNS? - Deputy Shoots and Kills teen!

  1. #11
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    Do we really need TOY GUNS?
    This is a serious couple of questions, superprincess, so please think about it and try to answer them:

    In a free country where the liberties acknowledged and protected by its Charter extend to the individual and not (only) the collective, how does the word "we" have any meaning in a question about personal choice?

    Likewise, in a free country where the liberties acknowledged and protected by its Charter extend to the individual and not (only) the collective, how does the word "need" have any meaning in a question about how a parent (or set of parents) want to raise their children?

    Many people have talked about the "problem(s)" you raise with your question as being associated with inadequate parenting or teaching or politicians giving "our" kids bad examples etc. I see no such problem to deal with at all. If "we need" anything, it's a return to the principles of individual liberty and responsibility. Even accepting the premise that "we need" to impose a collective solution to some perceived collective problem is demonstrative of the fact that individual liberty and responsibility is dead. That is much sadder to me than even the story you linked to.

    Blues
    No one has ever heard me say that I "hate" cops, because I don't. This is why I will never trust one again though: You just never know...

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  3. #12
    FNWylde Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by wolf_fire View Post
    I believe another problem is that people do not nearly have the common sense people had before. When I was a kid with my realistic toy guns, it wouldn't even occur to me to keep holding onto it if a police officer said to drop it. It wouldn't occur to me to point it anyone that I wasn't playing "cops and robbers" with, especially a real cop.

    When an authority figure told me that an action of mine was wrong and I continued to do it, there were real consequences. Today, I see kids doing the same stupid things over and over again and a typical response I hear from their parents, "oh, kids will be kids" along with a shrug and a smile. This is not the parenting I remember when I was a kid.

    Saying the toy is the fault in these cases is like saying real guns are the fault of people committing murder. The "gun did it" mentality doesn't fly here with toy guns either.

    If I were that kid, minding my own business, daydreaming about having some fun while walking to a friends house, carrying a toy and not having the first damn clue that the cops just pulled up behind me, the LAST thing that would occur to me was the the cops were screaming at ME. Maybe I don't connect the dots very quickly but if I had a TOY and a cop started screaming to drop the GUN, I'd think there was somebody else with a REAL GUN.

    Can't wait for the video and recordings but it sure sounds like it was 1) holler at the kid without identifying themselves as cops, 2)jump out of the car, and then when the kid turned to see WTF the commotion was, 3) he was shot dead still wondering WTF was happening.

    This wasn't a kid doing stupid ****, this was a kid being a kid. And as pointed out, you can't turn your body to address the cops without whatever in your hands following. No info yet as to whether the muzzle was up, down, or otherwise. The police statement said the officer was in fear of his life and that he believed the suspect was about to point the airsoft rifle at them'.

    Well, 'about' just isn't good enough. $.02

    Edit: and to answer the OP's thread title "Do we really need TOY GUNS?", not addressing the OP specifically, the answer to that is we don't really need a lot of things, but we live in America where we have the freedom and liberty to enjoy our personal interests. That it is guns, knives, quilting, or any other hobby should not matter.

    For what its worth, I'll post this clip of a cop jumping out of his car, hollering to put the knife down, and then shooting a man in the back. Threat? To who? Seattle Police Release Dashcam Video Of Woodcarver's Shooting - YouTube

    I spent a little time with my 14yo daughter last night explaining in a little more detail why am I virtually always armed and talking about a few of these incidents. She was speechless at this video.

  4. #13
    Seems like the ones calling for gun control are the very ones walking around with armed special agents. Or using guns as the picture of Obama proves, what hypocrites!
    I agree, someone has to take out the trash....

  5. #14
    Blues, I pose the question because the toy gun in the story, which I link to looked so real, even the LEO couldn't distinguish it from the real thing. Of course in America you should be able to own what you want. This is why my grandfather and father served for this country. But would I give a child or teen a toy gun which looks so real and then say go walk around outside with it? No I wouldn't because I could not face the consequences of a poor parental decision of judgement, loss of a child would be unbearable in my opinion. Why must the toy manufacturer make these toys look so real?
    I agree, someone has to take out the trash....

  6. #15
    Join Date
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    Quote Originally Posted by superprincess View Post
    Blues, I pose the question because the toy gun in the story, which I link to looked so real, even the LEO couldn't distinguish it from the real thing. Of course in America you should be able to own what you want. This is why my grandfather and father served for this country. But would I give a child or teen a toy gun which looks so real and then say go walk around outside with it? No I wouldn't because I could not face the consequences of a poor parental decision of judgement, loss of a child would be unbearable in my opinion. Why must the toy manufacturer make these toys look so real?
    It wasn't a toy, it was a pellet gun. Chances are that it was nowhere near as deadly as a real center-fire rifle, but there are some pretty powerful pellet guns out there and cops have no way of knowing which kind of ammo it fired in those critical seconds.

    This is almost a two-week old story superprincess. A lot of us have already discussed the facts of the case that are in the public domain. You can read the last, and most comprehensive, post of mine saying what I think about it by clicking here. That's the second to last post in a fairly short thread about it, and includes links to every story I read about the story as that and another thread were still active. The busier thread can be viewed here.

    Take your pick on which thread to look at, or look at both, but you're missing some important information if you still think the rifle was a toy. If it had really been a toy, it would have had a blaze-orange tip glued or painted on the muzzle. That's the law, and it's the law for toy (or airsoft) pistols too. Even if that was a toy and the kid either removed the plastic tip or painted over it to make his toy look more real, changing the laws would not solve that depth of stupidity. It wasn't a toy anyway though, so "we" don't "need" any laws to cover this kind of thing.

    Blues
    No one has ever heard me say that I "hate" cops, because I don't. This is why I will never trust one again though: You just never know...

  7. #16
    Thanks blues for the links, lesson learned next time I will look at threads for the last couple of weeks. :)
    I agree, someone has to take out the trash....

  8. #17
    My son and all his friends shoot airsoft guns. He still plays but has through me bought himself an AK clone and we as a family with the wife (cant get the daughter to go yet) go trap shooting every Thursday. (Jake and I won two turkeys, a bottle of wine and a 100 dollar Cabellas gift card yesterday at the gun club turkey shoot. Anyway more than half of these parents are anti gun but they go out and buy a toy that looks and feels like a real gun! I have told my son that when they play in the fields behind our house to drop his gun and put his hands on his head if the local or state police show up. I say this because in this day it seems as a lot of these cowboys are just looking for a reason. The thing in California....who knows? No video is available. After the guy sitting in the chair got riddled a few weeks ago it lends to doubt. If it was as they say then I would have done him too, but with all that goes on these days I have my suspicions. Sad either way.

  9. #18
    All of my sons toy guns have an orange tip by the way.

  10. #19
    ezkl2230 Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by zeebea View Post
    All of my sons toy guns have an orange tip by the way.
    It is a federal offense to remove the orange tip from a toy/airsoft gun for just this reason.

  11. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by ezkl2230 View Post
    It is a federal offense to remove the orange tip from a toy/airsoft gun for just this reason.
    Well, ... maybe. I shoot airsoft guns on my property, and have looked into the "orange tip" thing extensively. The applicable Federal code is Title 15 CFR, subtitle B, chapter XI, section 1150. This regulation in general deals with commerce, and this subsection specifically with the import, transportation, and sale of replica and toy guns. It states:
    " 1150.2
    Prohibitions.
    No person shall manufacture, enter into commerce, ship, transport, or receive any toy, look-alike, or imitation firearm (“device”) covered by this part as set forth in 1150.1 of this part unless such device contains, or has affixed to it, one of the markings set forth in 1150.3 of this part, or unless this prohibition has been waived by 1150.4 of this part."

    (Other subsections of sections 1150 deal with what guns this applies to and what the markings must be.)

    Nothing in this subsection specifically deals with the end user or consumer, it is concerned with commerce: import and sale. In the context of the Title "transport" is usually taken to refer to transport for commerce. There is no Federal law that specifically addresses the issue of whether the consumer can remove the orange tip. Looking into it you can find legal opinions on both sides, but I cannot find any actual court case of any consumer being charged under this regulation or any court ruling concerning the issue. There are state and local laws in some places, but this is the only Federal law that addresses the "airsoft orange tip issue", and apparently legal opinions vary on its applicability.

    It could be argued that the phrasing in one of the other subsections, "permanently affixed", means the consumer cannot remove it either, but the problem is the whole Title 15 deals with Commerce and Foreign Trade. So its clear that a retailer cannot remove the orange tip, but less clear whether this also applies to the consumer. Kind of like the tags on mattresses prohibiting removal, although in recent years they clarified that by adding that it cannot be removed "except by the consumer".

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