Which has more stopping power 9mm or .40 Caliber - Page 10
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Thread: Which has more stopping power 9mm or .40 Caliber

  1. #91
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    I think that I've said this before that this often recurring argument is kinda like "How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?". The posts are fun and many are informative but, as always, there is no definitive resolution both because there isn't one and also because it really doesn't matter! Here's something that presents a different and I believe realistic look at handgun stopping power:

    An Alternate Look at Handgun Stopping Power | Buckeye Firearms Association

    Hope that you enjoy this.
    MOLON LABE

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  3. #92
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    Very interesting. Thanks. It's no more reliable than many of the other reputable studies are though, and in some ways it's worse. In statistical analysis you don't get to "determine the variables and their definitions", though you can certainly influence them. Variables are something that occur from the event or from factors that influence the event. You adjust or account for those variables to the maximum extent possible. You don't get to make up your own variables, or simply exclude what you don't like. I don't think he meant to say it that way though, so I would certainly concede he could make a better case for what was included and what was excluded by wording that statement a little differently. He believes choosing to include multiple hit shootings and non-torso hits makes his analysis more accurate than Marshall and Sanow's work where such things were excluded. He's unfortunately mistaken on that point. By including both single hit and multiple hit scenarios he introduces additional variables that simply cannot be accounted for. Any statistician can tell you that comparing like events is far more accurate than comparing events that are not similar. Proper statistical analysis expends maximum effort to exclude unlike factors or to empirically account for them as variables. You can't do that with multiple hit shooting scenarios. Take this passage for instance:

    On average, how many rounds did it take for the person to stop his violent action or be incapacitated? For this number, I included hits anywhere on the body. To be considered an immediate incapacitation, I used criteria similar to Marshall's. If the attacker was striking or shooting the victim, the round needed to immediately stop the attack without another blow being thrown or shot being fired.
    If you're tracking incapacitation and include scenarios where there were multiple hits, how can you know which hit creates the stop? If a subject is stopped after four shots, there's no way to know conclusively which shot actually succeeded in stopping the subject, especially if the shots were in separate anatomical areas. Shot one could have been the true stopping shot, but the subject might not go down until shot four is fired. The number of varying scenarios is almost impossible to accurately compare with just one shot, much less being accurate with multiple hits. And including hits in all body areas would just further convolute a data set that is already far too myriad to possibly adjust to with any statistical certainty. Even Marshall and Sanow noted how it was impossible to account for 100% causality when using just one hit shootings and torso hits. Multiple hits would have just introduced a huge amount of additional variables that were difficult or even impossible to adjust for. That's why Marshall and Sanow limited their study as they did, for more accuracy. But this author believes he achieves higher reliability by including more unlike events and variables. You simply can't do that. he even hints at that exact point with this statement:

    One other thing to look at is the 9mm data. A huge number (over half) of 9mm shootings involved ball ammo. I think that skewed the results of the study in a negative manner.
    That indicates he knows very well that unlike factors negatively influence the accuracy of your data. Yet, not only does he deliberately add unlike data, he actually claims that doing so makes his analysis more accurate than that of Marshall and Sanow. That's a significant contradiction.

    But don't take my critique to be a condemnation or a dismissal of what the author did, nor necessarily a refutation of his conclusions. On the contrary, I think his effort was incredibly rigorous and exhaustive, and far too few analysts go to the level of effort he expended. I wish more analysts would expend such effort. I also agree with much of his conclusion, though I don't think it was something produced by accurate analysis like he claims. I'd like to see his entire data set. He most definitely gets extremely high marks for effort though. And he achieves his goal. This is indeed an "alternate" look at handgun stopping power. My hat is off to him.
    Posterity: you will never know how much it has cost my generation to preserve your freedom. I hope you will make good use of it.--- John Quincy Adams
    Condensed Guide To Ohio Concealed Carry Laws

  4. The 40 Cal has more foot pounds of force at impact and is generally better for stopping, but it had considerably more recoil than 9mm. Whatever you can carry better and shoot better should be your choice. By the way, the 9mm is way cheaper to shoot and train with.

    Sent from my SM-G935T using USA Carry mobile app

  5. #94
    It all is decided by you aim. A head shot by either will probably kill your aggressor. I doesn't matter what the caliber if you only graze them. It's a quality, not quantity, thing.

  6. #95
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    Howdy,

    Quote Originally Posted by SR9 View Post
    It all is decided by you aim. A head shot by either will probably kill your aggressor. I doesn't matter what the caliber if you only graze them. It's a quality, not quantity, thing.
    So, how many people have you shot in the head that was trying to shoot you first?

    Just curious.

    Paul

  7. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stengun View Post
    Howdy,



    So, how many people have you shot in the head that was trying to shoot you first?

    Just curious.

    Paul
    Probably 'bout as many as you have
    In an emergency individuals do not rise to the occasion, they fall to the level of their MASTERED training
    Barrett Tillman

  8. Quote Originally Posted by Eidolon View Post
    Probably 'bout as many as you have
    Better be careful!

    Oswald is a leaning, greenish kinda machine that will roll over you like the tide in Nevada!!



    Oooohhhhh!! Spooky!

  9. #98

    Which has more stopping power 9mm or .40 Caliber?

    Depends upon what you hit (anatomically speaking) and the mental state of the person posing the threat. KE, momentum, cavity volumes all mean nothing until something is hit and what that ''something'' is is very important.

    A 9mm to the foot probably won't stop someone who is intent on killing you from killing you, but a .40 through an eye socket most likely will. Flip around the calibers hitting the locations (a .40 to the foot and a 9mm through an eye socket) and the statement is just as valid. Too many variables when the human body, and the mind attached to it, are involved to say with any certainty how a shooting (with any caliber) will come out.
    Highly recommended reading:
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    QUANTITATIVE AMMUNITION SELECTION

  10. Don't ever count on some simple pistol round to stop an attacker..

    There is a video that I saw from Paladin Press about the myths surrounding stopping power..

    One man was shot, in the face, with a 44 mag. The blast alone blew his eye out but this man crawled two blocks to his car to retrieve his own weapon before he died!

    Or what about the perp who takes 20+ rounds of nine mil, a dozen rounds of 12 gauge and isn't stopped until his spine is severed by another 12 gauge blast!?
    Don't ever count on any pistol round to end the fight. It takes training and consistency to achieve that..

  11. #100
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    I'm probably going to get the terminology wrong but there is a difference between lethality and incapacitation. During "The Miami Shootout" one of the robbers (Platte I THINK) received a lethal wound. Apparently the damage done was so severe that he would have died if he'd been on the operating table when he was shot.

    Even so in the time it took for the wound to kill him he was able to stay in the fight and kill at least one agent
    In an emergency individuals do not rise to the occasion, they fall to the level of their MASTERED training
    Barrett Tillman

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