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Thread: Conflict over holster

  1. #11
    I do not know if there is a real problem with the holster or not. I guess the bottom line is If an instructor has something he does not want at his course that is his right. He has his reasons. Also if any of us can't live with that fact then we have the right not to take his course and go somewhere else. For me the holster thing is not a big deal.
    By faith Noah,being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear,prepared an ark to the saving of his house;by the which he condemned the world,and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith Heb.11:7

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  3. #12
    Speak of the devil and, well...BOO. Here is the transcript of my discussions with Mr. Wuzfuz. Since he used my name, I will use his.

    Allen Benge wrote:

    Someone posted the information on your class on the usacarry website, and at the bottom of the listing, just above the Instructor's name was the announcement that Blackhawk Serpa holsters were not allowed in the class. As I selected this holster after several days of examining very closely all the holsters availeable for the Springfield Armory XD-45, I would sure like to know why you prohibit it. The holster that came with the pistol is okay as far as it goes, but only covers the trigger guard andejection port, leaving most of the pistol uncovered. It also only has a passive retention device, which is fine, if no one ever tries to take your weapon. The Blackhawk covers the pistol from the magazine release to the muzzle, and has an active retnetion device that automatically sets you up for the proper pistol grip. I have thoroughly tested this holster, and found that if someone tries to take the weapon and doesn't know how the retention device works, they will just lift you by the belt. I cannot imagine why you are so down on this fine holster, unless you think it is like the old LAPD clamshell holsterswhere the rtrigger finger had to go through the trigger guard to push a release button. I would sincerely like to know what your problem is.

    Allen Benge

    **********************************

    My Reply - Allen,

    The Serpa Holster - Why We Don't Allow Them In Class

    Simply put...the Serpa is a poorly designed but brilliantly marketed holster that causes a user to press in with the finger tip as they draw their pistol. In many cases it ends up with the trigger finger right on the trigger (and pressing inward) prematurely. In other words...long before it would be safe to do so.

    I am aware of five situations where this has caused an AD on the range. Twice where it led so a self-inflicted gunshot in other school's classes and several times in the Force On Force environment in my own classes. And these guys were either highly experienced shooters of seasoned operators.

    If I allow a holster like that in class, having seen the problems and knowing the problems, and a student shoots themselves...it really would be my fault. As I understand it Yeager at Tactical Response disallows them too.

    Invariably, Serpa devotees will point out to the shooter and not the holster. Now on the lack of muzzle discipline, finger on the trigger, and other issues that contribute to problems, would Serpa Aficionados, say I should ignore those? I will bet not.

    So If I cannot ignore these shooter-created problems, should I ignore a holster that makes them worse? What would some of the Serpa-crowd say if "Gabe doesn't care if you put your finger on the trigger, or if you ignore muzzle discipline and sweep everyone"?

    So if as a trainer, I am duty-moral-and honor bound to make sure people, at the level they are training, understand the safety issues as required for their level, am I not also in the same position with what I have seen to be UNSAFE GEAR?? I would say so.


    His reply - Allen Benge wrote:

    I feel I have to disagree with you on the positioning of the trigger finger. Using the release most certainly does not put the finger on the trigger. If you were talking about the old clamshell holster where the trigger finger had to go into the trigger guard to press the release button, I would stand by you in a New York minute. However, with the Serpa, pressing the release and pulling hte pistol out of the holster results in the finger lying alongside the slide, and nowhere near the trigger guard.. If the shooter drops his finger down and into the guard, that is stupidity, not poor holster design. I have been practicing daily with my Blackhawk, drawing the (unloaded) pistol suddenly, as if reacting to an attack, and my finger has never entered the trigger guard. Every draw results in the proper hold for the pistol, which I might mention, movies and TV are finally starting to get right, with the actors holding the pistol with the finger outside the guard, but ready to drop if they need to fire. While I agree that you have the right to decide what your class will do, I think your reasoning is specious, and you are doing a great disservice to a fine piece of equipment.. The holster that is sent with the XD-45 is okay, but it only has a passive retention device, which keeps the pistol from falling out of the holster accidentally. I take it from your decision that this holster would be okay. I do not agree. I was a deputy sheriff, and weapon retention is uppermost in my mind, and the Blackhawk has an excellent active retention device that will prevent someone from taking your pistol out of the holster long enough for you to clock him. I will not post your reply. Sorry, but I vehemently disagree with you. In addition to being a former deputy, I was also certified as a Range Master, Range Safety Officer, and Basic Marksmanship Instructor in Arizona, and I believe iin the Blackhawk and proper instruction. Proper instrruction will overcome any poor habits on the part of a shooter. I submit that you lack enough class time and dry fire practice to detect those who would not use the equipment properly, maybe in the interest of saving time. Perhaps a bit more class time before you take the people to the range would benefit. Perfect Practice makes Perfect. Just Practice alone, unless it is practicing the proper method does no good. You could practice drawing and presenting the weapon forty hours a week, and if you practice it sloppily, all you are doing is reinforcing poor shooting habits. I am sorry you have had students, because of poor training, who had negligent discharges. There is no such animal as an accidental discharge. The shooter's finger has to be on the trigger, so it is negligence, not accident. Not one of the students I taught ever had a negligent discharge, because I saw that they were properly trained. I wish you luck, but I cannot in good conscience ever refer anyone to your class. I cannot send someone to an instructor who is too lazy to see to it that the students are adequately taught in pistolcraft so that they don't shoot themselves.

    Allen Benge

    *******************************************

    My reply to him -

    Allen,

    You can disagree and that is fine. I have seen highly trained guys AD during high intensity force on force exercises due to the design of the Serpa holster. We don't play "range games" we test our stuff very hard. In those tests, the Serpa has failed, just like the modern technique taught at your favorite school has failed. As far as you not referring anyone to my class, oh well. Let's just say that I won't lose any sleep over it.

    Cheers,

    Gabe Suarez
    Suarez International

  4. #13
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    Nice to see you here Mr. G.S.! (don't want to be outed like "wuzfuz") I won't be able to attend the class when you get here in July, but may get a chance to meet you as I'm active with one of the organizations that's sponsoring the classes.



    gf
    "A few well placed shots with a .22LR is a lot better than a bunch of solid misses with a .44 mag!" Glock Armorer, NRA Chief RSO, Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun, Muzzleloading Rifle, Muzzleloading Shotgun, and Home Firearm Safety Training Counselor

  5. Conflict over holster

    I did not expect Mr. Suarez to follow me here to post our conversation. If he had not identified himslef, but answered my inquiry anonymously, I would have done like hte media when relating a statement by the president but don't want to quote him by saying a high White House source, and I would have stated the administration at Suarez International stated so and so. I have stated more than once that Mr. Suarez certainly has the right to determine what will be used in his calsses. I just happen to feel that his opinion of the holster in question is not based on fact. If I teach someone to shoot, I will not allow them to use oneof the cheapo nylon 'bags' that are sold all over as holsters. Yes, they will hold a gun, but in my opinion not very well, and the weapon can fall out or be taken out at will by an opponent. I certainly wish Mr Suarez well and hope he prospers. I do have some people, believe it or not, who value my opinon and ask me for good shooting schools. Previously, I would have said Gunsite at Paulden, AZ. After finding about what happened there before the passing of Col. Cooper, I can no longer recommend Gunsite. Now, I heartliy recommend Front Sight in Pahrump, NV, based on a thorough researching of Dr. Piazza's ideals and teaching techniques. I asked Dr. Piazza his opinion of hte Blachawk holster, and he says he and his instructors have never had a moment's problems with the holster. It was funny, when I was a depiuty and our sheriff authorized those who wish to carry automatic pistols, the guys carrying revolvers had a basic laether bag. the gun anyone could shoot had hthe least security. the autopistols, however, required the purchase of a leather 'safe' that took a combination of moves to deactivate the retention devices and draw the weapon. In other words, the weapon that required thought had to be locked into the holster, while the recolver coudl be snatched at will, or even fall out of hte holster. Mr. Suarez certainly has the right to speak his opinion, but I also have that right, and just becaue he has the wherewithal to run a school and I don't, does not make him right and me wrong. To Mr. Suarez snd everyone else, have a Happy and Prosperous New Year.
    A man without a gun is a subject; a man with a gun is a citizen.
    I'll keep my freedom, my guns and my money. You can keep THE CHANGE.
    An armed society is a polite society.

  6. #15
    Uh, guys (and gals) - Gabe Suarez wasn't outed.

    He uses his real name as his ID, as do I.

    That is most definitely NOT outing someone.

    If you use your real name as your ID, you outed yourself or didn't care who knew your name.

    Ed
    Reality, DEAL with IT!

  7. #16
    There are many fine schools out there. Not having attended them I can only go by what I read and the videos that I have as to which I feel is the best. From what I have seen, read, and heard if I had the money and time to attend one Gabe Saurez would for sure be at or near the top as well as the Valhalla Training Center in Colorado and perhaps Thunder Ranch. There are I am sure a lot of other fine schools as well. I know there are a number of posters on this forum, Glock Fan for one, that have had experience at one or more of these schools.
    By faith Noah,being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear,prepared an ark to the saving of his house;by the which he condemned the world,and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith Heb.11:7

  8. #17
    Glock Fan,

    Come on out and visit. We will be at Ewa Beach. Don't have to take the class, just come on by to say hello.

    Aloha

    Gabe Suarez
    Suarez International


    Wuzfuz,

    The only "wherewithall" needed to run a school is hard work, real world experience and an entreprenurial heart. All of these things are within everyone's reach. I am not special and the only time I can walk on water is when its frozen.

  9. #18
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    1,437
    Quote Originally Posted by Gabe Suarez View Post
    I have seen highly trained guys AD during high intensity force on force exercises due to the design of the Serpa holster.
    Apparently "highly trained" is highly relative.
    Silent Running, by Mike and the Mechanics

  10. #19
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Honolulu, HI & Salt Lake City, UT
    Posts
    2,797
    For the record, I own several holsters. A few of them are Blackhawk Serpa holsters. I think it's a good holster, never had a ND using it, but now that it's been brought to my attention that there could be issues, I'm going to watch for this. I've done FOF training using the airsoft equivalent of my SD guns, carried in exactly the same manner I usually carry. Of the group I normally train with, only two of us use the Blackhawk Serpa holster. I use my middle finger to disengage the retention device when drawing my firearm. This may be part of the reason for me not having a ND. The other guy who uses a Serpa holster has been caught with his finger on the trigger prematurely, though there's yet to be a ND. I'll pass along Mr. Suarez's comments and we'll adapt our training.

    I used to have a Bianchi holster that required the middle finger to disengage the retention device. I switched to the Serpa holster because I liked the fact that it wasn't leather and wasn't affected by the high humidity of the climates where I usually find myself working. So far, so good. Only beef I have with the holster so far is that I think it's severly over priced.



    gf
    "A few well placed shots with a .22LR is a lot better than a bunch of solid misses with a .44 mag!" Glock Armorer, NRA Chief RSO, Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun, Muzzleloading Rifle, Muzzleloading Shotgun, and Home Firearm Safety Training Counselor

  11. Well he is an idiot. I have a Blackhawk holster and the gun will not come out unless the internal trigger lock is disengaged. Plus so what it your finger may slip into the trigger guard. Don't take it out unless youre going to end some piece of ****'s life. Instructors quotes are like a textbook. There're a foundation/guideline. Situation dictates.

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