Conflict over holster
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Thread: Conflict over holster

  1. Conflict over holster

    Someone recently posted some material from Suarez International. On SI's ad, at the bottom it said the Blackhawk Serpa holster was not allowed in their classes. As this is the holster I have chosen, I wrote SI and inquired as to the reason for the prohibition. I received an email from Gabriel Suarez that said he believed the holster was poorly designed and had been the reason fo rsome accidental discharges in his classes. I responded that if he had meant the old LAPD clamshell I could agree, as the trigger finger had to enter the trigger guard to press the release button. With the Blackhawk, the active retention release lies under the trigger finger when the hand grips the pistol. When you push the release and draw the gun, the trigger finger naturally lies alongside the slide, whish is the proper way to hold a pistol until you fire. He stated that the finger naturally slipped down into the trigger guard. When I was iin the academy and later, in CCW class, it was pounded into our heads that there is no such thing as an AD, it is a negligent discharge, the finger has to be on the trigger. He insisted that he had seen SWAT members have ADs in the field due to the holster design. I then wrote to Dr Ignatius Piazza, of Front Sight for his take. Dr. Piazza stated that he had never had a problem with the Blackhawk holster, and that Front Sight trains more shooters in a weekend than SI does in a year. While D. Piazza did not say anytihng about SI's policies, I feel that Gabe Suarez is a lazy instructor who would rather ban a fine holster than properly train his students in gun safety, and gives them an easy alibi by accepting the AD fallacy instead of being sure they do not have an ND. If I had the chance, I would attend Front Sight, and forget about Suarez International.
    A man without a gun is a subject; a man with a gun is a citizen.
    I'll keep my freedom, my guns and my money. You can keep THE CHANGE.
    An armed society is a polite society.

  2.   
  3. #2
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
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    Michigan
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    60
    This holster has been used in the presence of a lot of ND's. Was it the holsters fault? I do not know. There was a recall on one version of it. Is it a bad design? I do not know. I have a few friends that love theirs but I do not own one. I own three Glocks and people say they Kaboom. SI has the right to ban these holsters from their classroom if they wish. It is better to be safe then sorry in their eyes.

  4. #3
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
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    Grand Strand / South Carolina
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    If a student enters one of his classes aren't they there to be properly trained. And if they enter with a hostler that an unexperienced gun handler may misuse then isn't it a danger to the class. In my opinion he has the right and you are questioning his abilities because you feel your holster is worthy. I didn't read his site, but does he suggest against the use of that holster AFTER his class which would be at the time he has had a chance to train you? Just my $0.02.
    SC CWP
    Kimber Ultra II
    Taurus PT1911 ALR

  5. #4
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Honolulu, HI & Salt Lake City, UT
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    As an instructor, I will advise my students as to what gear is required for my class. I will also advise as to what equipment is "acceptable" and what I would "recommend". If I feel strongly about a proper piece of eqipment as being "unsafe", I will prohibit it from my class. I feel that Mr. Suarez is an excellent instructor. I've trained many who have attended his classes as well as many who have attended Front Sight. Both instructors schools have techniques that I agree with as well as disagree with. If Mr. Suarez wants to prohibit a specific piece of equipment from his class, it's his option. Is it his responsibility to train students proper holster draw? It all depends on the class. I would consider most of his classes to be for the "advanced" shooter. Most "novice" shooters will be intimidated by him and his agressive techniques. In the end, it's up to the individual to decide which class they will take.

    I know of one school that I WILL NOT attend. I won't post their name here, but for those who want to know, PM me and I'll give you my opinion. Though many people wish to attend the particular school, and they get a lot of referrals from friends, family, etc, I still won't attend because their teaching methods are far from what I would consider to be "safe" or "quality". Keep in mind that there's a school that will tell their students not to do any "dry fire" practice at home due to the probability of a "ND". As a NRA instructor, I encourage my students to "dry fire" practice. They are trained how to properly prepare for their dry fire practicing, and are given written instructions. One part of the process is to SECURE ALL LIVE AMMO. By following the necessary steps, they will avoid the possibility of a "ND".

    I suggest that we carefully review the techniques and philosopy of the schools we want to attend. Keep in mind that just because you don't agree with a particular aspect of a school, that the rest of the program isn't beneficial. You could always modify the techniques to fit your individual situation and beliefs.



    gf
    "A few well placed shots with a .22LR is a lot better than a bunch of solid misses with a .44 mag!" Glock Armorer, NRA Chief RSO, Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun, Muzzleloading Rifle, Muzzleloading Shotgun, and Home Firearm Safety Training Counselor

  6. #5
    Keep in mind that there's a school that will tell their students not to do any "dry fire" practice at home due to the probability of a "ND". As a NRA instructor, I encourage my students to "dry fire" practice. They are trained how to properly prepare for their dry fire practicing, and are given written instructions. One part of the process is to SECURE ALL LIVE AMMO. By following the necessary steps, they will avoid the possibility of a "ND".


    +1. Don't know how you would have a ND with and empty gun. If someone is dry firing with a loaded gun then they fail to understand the term dry fire. As the saying goes you can't fix stupid.
    By faith Noah,being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear,prepared an ark to the saving of his house;by the which he condemned the world,and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith Heb.11:7

  7. Conflict

    I agree wholeheartedly with GF. Maybe the techniques of one instructor are too advanced for novices. The way I was taiught to teach anyone, regardless of whether it is shooting or making Chicken Cordon Bleu is to assume at the beginning that the student knows absolutely nothing about the subject. To me, the first step in firearms training is to train the student to prevent NDs, then go to the range. It is my strong belief that if a person will put his finger in the trigger guard with the Blackhawk holster, then he will do so with any holster on the market. I commend Hollywood, as I have noticed that more and more actors are shown holding their pistols correctly, with the trigger finger along the slide. When you draw from the holster in question, that is where your trigger finger is. This is not the type of holster that your finger enters the trigger guard to release it. The holster makes you hold the pistol corrctly when you draw it. I thank everyone for their input, and am grateful we live in a country where we are free to discuss our opinions without fear of Hobnail booted thugs kicking our door down and hauling us off in the night. God Bless America!

    HK4U, a couple of Indianapolis police officers used to play fast draw with their empty revolvers in the locker room. One day one of the officers, (a guy I went to school with) had his buddy yell whatever their challenge was. My freind had loaded his revolver for duty, and whirled, drew and shot his fellow officer. Fortunately, he survived, but that is how you can have an ND with an empty gun. One of the prime rules is handle every gun as if a bullet will come blasting out of the barrel any second, and never point a gun at anythng you do not intend to blow to smithereens.
    Last edited by wuzfuz; 12-30-2008 at 08:09 PM.
    A man without a gun is a subject; a man with a gun is a citizen.
    I'll keep my freedom, my guns and my money. You can keep THE CHANGE.
    An armed society is a polite society.

  8. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by wuzfuz View Post
    I agree wholeheartedly with GF. Maybe the techniques of one instructor are too advanced for novices. The way I was taiught to teach anyone, regardless of whether it is shooting or making Chicken Cordon Bleu is to assume at the beginning that the student knows absolutely nothing about the subject. To me, the first step in firearms training is to train the student to prevent NDs, then go to the range. It is my strong belief that if a person will put his finger in the trigger guard with the Blackhawk holster, then he will do so with any holster on the market. I commend Hollywood, as I have noticed that more and more actors are shown holding their pistols correctly, with the trigger finger along the slide. When you draw from the holster in question, that is where your trigger finger is. This is not the type of holster that your finger enters the trigger guard to release it. The holster makes you hold the pistol corrctly when you draw it. I thank everyone for their input, and am grateful we live in a country where we are free to discuss our opinions without fear of Hobnail booted thugs kicking our door down and hauling us off in the night. God Bless America!

    HK4U, a couple of Indianapolis police officers used to play fast draw with their empty revolvers in the locker room. One day one of the officers, (a guy I went to school with) had his buddy yell whatever their challenge was. My freind had loaded his revolver for duty, and whirled, drew and shot his fellow officer. Fortunately, he survived, but that is how you can have an ND with an empty gun. One of the prime rules is handle every gun as if a bullet will come blasting out of the barrel any second, and never point a gun at anythng you do not intend to blow to smithereens.

    I have been told, but do not know for sure, that one deputy killed another in Fort Worth in the 1950's or early 60's doing the same thing.
    By faith Noah,being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear,prepared an ark to the saving of his house;by the which he condemned the world,and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith Heb.11:7

  9. #8
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
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    Indiana
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    4,650
    I also read somewhere earlier this year about some unintentional discharges (not sure whether they were accidental or negligent) that resulted from the use of these holsters. If the design of the holster caused the discharges through no fault of the holster wearers, then I'd have to say they were accidental. If poor technique was the culprit, then I'd consider them negligent.
    Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both.

    Benjamin Franklin

  10. #9
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
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    1,437
    I have a Serpa for a 92/96. The piece that locks the gun into place goes into the front of the trigger guard, but the button that the finger hits is outside of the guard. Someone who makes a mistake with the Serpa would probably make a mistake anyway, as it would at some point require moving their finger to the trigger rather than the slide when they shouldn't.

    Alternately, it might be possible to make the holster "pull" the trigger by forcing the weapon into the holster with such effort that it would probably break the entire thing. At least on this model, I don't see how it's possible for the holster to somehow magically pull the trigger while drawing. There has to be a finger involved somewhere.

    IMO, students of anything who don't learn to properly use a variety of platforms and tools, particularly those that are widely utilized and commonly encountered (whether they're necessarily the best available tools or not) are at a significant disadvantage. You never know when you might have to resort to using your least favorite type of (fill in the blank) in a pinch.
    Silent Running, by Mike and the Mechanics

  11. Your Post

    Hey, I just got back from front sight and I am already scheduling to go back at the end of Jan. You owe it to yourself to go to Front Sight if at all possible....all the claims they make turn out to be true and I doubled my already good skills in a four day period....Screw Suarez - I agree...very lazy...

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