gunman opens fire in NC nursing home - Page 3
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Thread: gunman opens fire in NC nursing home

  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Glock Fan View Post
    I'd add "psychatric facilities" and "psychiatric wings" of hospitals and treatment facilities, as some of the people being treated in these facilities are "court ordered".



    gf
    The facility where my mother is staying is almost completely Alzheimers patients. Most groups divide Alzheimers into 8 stages where people with stages 1-5 can still function independently without around the clock supervision. In stages 6-7 they will need help with their normal daily activities but are also at the most dangerous point. They can still function physically but mentally they cannot make proper judgements and often retrun to their childhood or young adult life. For instance one man "stole" a car and crashed 150 miles away thinking that he was in a truck hauling cotton like he had done when he was a young man.In anaother a woman beat the cablevision guy with her walker because he wouldn't accept play money for he cablevision bill.

    In stage 8 they are moved to a separate secition of the facility as they no longer can function without help for their basic needs but can easily become violent and that many are still physically able to function have to be separated from the general community.

    The point is that we can't lump all "old-folks" homes into one category and the point about psychiatric facilities is a good one. There is a reason that prision guards do not usually carry sidearms and that applies to other places.

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  3. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by bigspurr View Post
    Perhaps the shooter did not read the sign.[/I]
    The sad part is he probably did know. We had a robbery here in SC at a hospital parking garage guess where you can't carry unless you are a B.G. thatís right the hospital.[/QUOTE]

    I guess the signs need to be bigger.. that way the bad guys are sure to see them.
    You can have my freedom as soon as I'm done with it!!!

  4. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow View Post
    The sad part is he probably did know. We had a robbery here in SC at a hospital parking garage guess where you can't carry unless you are a B.G. thatís right the hospital.
    I guess the signs need to be bigger.. that way the bad guys are sure to see them.[/QUOTE]

    the hospital here are not posted with exception to one that is posted with a sign saying CCW holders may check their firearms in with security. the nurses at most are pretty anti gun though i once saw one try to have a OSI agent remove his gun and place it in the car until he produced credentials. but that was of course her policy not the hospitals. they will eventually have to change their minds about posting gun free zones. the only question is how many innocent people will have to lose their lives before they do
    We would be better off with BORAT as PRESIDENT!!!!

  5. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by roofnron View Post
    This is terrible and I feel bad for the families. These thugs continue to have a consistent pattern. They go after places where they will not likely run into any resistance. But you won't hear that on the news shows in the morning.
    Have there been studies, not reports but studies, that confirm this about the places most likly targeted? If so, can someone post a link? Thanks in advance.
    WAL

  6. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by wellarmedliberal View Post
    Have there been studies, not reports but studies, that confirm this about the places most likly targeted? If so, can someone post a link? Thanks in advance.
    WAL
    Evidently law enforcement is doing studies as we speak. Check out the article and watch the video. The video is posted somewhere else in these forums.

    When Seconds Count: Stopping Active Killers - Cincinnati breaking news, weather radar, traffic from 9News | Channel 9 WCPO.com

    When Seconds Count: Stopping Active Killers
    Reported by: Brendan Keefe
    Email: [email protected]
    Last Update: 11/21/2008 7:41 pm


    Related Links
    More I-Team Reports
    There have been so many school shootings over the last 40 years that researchers have been able to develop a profile of the typical mass murderer.

    They're called "active shooters" or "active killers" and their crimes play out in a matter of minutes.

    After the Columbine High School massacre in 1999, police changed their tactics. The two student gunmen killed 15 people and themselves before the SWAT team was in position.

    Commanders realized that it simply takes too long to assemble a tactical team in time to stop an active killer.

    The new tactics developed in response to Columbine involved creating an ad-hoc tactical team using the first four or five patrol officers on the scene. They would enter the shooting scene in a diamond formation with guns pointing in all directions. This technique was employed by police departments around the country.

    Then 32 people were killed by a lone gunman at Virginia Tech in April 2007. Seung Hui Cho shot 47 people, 30 fatally, in the university's Norris Hall in just 11 minutes.

    That means every minute he killed more than three people and shot a total of four. Once again, the gunman continued shooting until a four-officer team made entry and then he killed himself. Law enforcement once again reviewed its tactics.

    Based on the Virginia Tech data, top tactics training facilities determined the first officer on scene should make entry immediately with an aggressive attack on the shooter. Every minute the officer waits for back-up, another three or more people could die.

    In other words, while it was once considered suicide for a lone officer to take on an active killer, it is now considered statistical homicide for him not to do so.

    Tactical Defense Institute in Adams County, Ohio developed one of the first "single officer response" programs in the nation. TDI was teaching the tactic even before Virginia Tech. Now the National School Resource Officer Organization (NSRO) is using TDI instructors to teach school resource officers nationwide how to confront a gunman immediately.

    Locally, all Blue Ash police officers are trained in these new tactics in large part because their chief, Col. Chris Wallace, is also a TDI instructor.

    The other statistic that emerged from a study of active killers is that they almost exclusively seek out "gun free" zones for their attacks. In most states, concealed handguns are prohibited at schools and on college campuses even for those with permits. Many malls and workplaces also place signs at their entrances prohibiting firearms on the premises.

    Now some tacticians believe the signs themselves may be an invitation to the active killers.

    The psychological profile of a mass murderer indicates he is looking to inflict the most casualties as quickly as possible. Also, the data show most active killers have no intention of surviving the event. They may select schools and shopping malls because of the large number of defenseless victims and the virtual guarantee no on the scene one is armed.

    As soon as they're confronted by any armed resistance, the shooters typically turn the gun on themselves.

    (UPDATE 11/21/08 by Anchor/Reporter Brendan Keefe):


    We have received many requests about the source for our assertion that most mass murders have occurred in otherwise "gun free" zones.

    The experts are Ron Borsch from SEALE Academy in Bedford, Ohio and John Benner from Tactical Defense Institute.

    A summary of Borsch's study can be found here

    We also conducted our own analysis of mass murders in the U.S. The vast majority occurred in schools or on college campuses where firearms are banned as a matter of state statutes. Others took place in post offices where firearms are banned as a matter of federal law. Most of the rest took place in shopping malls or other businesses where the owners posted signs prohibiting firearm possession by anyone including those with CCW permits.

    In some states, like Ohio, those signs have the force of law and violators are prosecuted under the relevant statute. In other states, like Texas, the signs are considered trespass notices and violators are first asked to leave, then they are arrested for trespass if they decline (of course, if your weapon is visible, it's no longer concealed and there are other potential legal consequences).

    Based on data from the SEALE study, an analysis by TDI, and our own painstaking research, we are able to say definitively that most "active killer" shootings have occurred in so-called "gun free" zones. The experts who say they may be "invitations" are also John Benner and Ron Borsch who have six decades of law enforcement experience and training between them.

    The Luby's Cafeteria shooting in Killeen, TX in 1991 took place before Texas adopted its Florida-style CCW law. In fact, that mass murder of 23 people was used as an example by those seeking to enact the CCW legislation.

    It is accurate to say firearms were banned in Luby's at that time because there was no uniform concealed carry law in place in 1991. In fact, several victims and survivors had legally owned handguns in their cars at the time of the shooting.

    While that shooting was not addressed in our story, it and others over the last 40 years were analyzed in our investigation.

    As journalists, we are not interested in entering into the heated debate over gun control. We are, however, interested in reporting the facts. In this story, the facts point to the active shooters ignoring gun prohibitions and perhaps selecting those locations because they are "soft targets" where no resistance would be found.

    Copyright 2008 The E.W. Scripps Co. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.

  7. #26
    Ohio trainer makes the case for single-officer entry against active killers

    This is the link for Borsch's study referenced in the above article. I agree with a good bit of the article especially about the need for the first person there to respond. In the summary of his study he makes some good points about the ability of the first person to respond to really make a difference. The one problem that I do have with the study is the lumping in of the VT and Columbine incidents with many others in their conclusion about GFZ. Certainly if there had been people armed in either case there would have been less lives lost. At VT remember that Cho chained the doors shut. The focus has been on this to bee keeping people in rather than keeping people out. Either way it was a very deliberate move on his part to cause as much mayhem as possible. If if had not been a GFZ would he have not tried at all or would he have tried at some other place. Remember that he had already killed one person in a dorm before moving to the classroom. Would the killers at Columbine have chose another school if it had not been a GFZ? Certainly there could have been less victims if it had not been a GFZ.

    Borsch, who logged 17 years as a part-time SWAT team member before retiring from street work, has analyzed more than 90 active-shooter incidents on the basis of data largely ferreted out from Internet reports. Most involved schools and colleges, but workplaces, shopping malls, churches and other public places are also represented. Among his findings that have helped shape his tactical thinking:

    • 98% of active killers act alone.

    • 80% have long guns, 75% have multiple weapons (about 3 per incident), and they sometimes bring hundreds of extra rounds of ammunition to the shooting site.

    • Despite such heavy armaments and an obsession with murder at close range, they have an average hit rate of less than 50%.

    • They strike “stunned, defenseless innocents via surprise ambush. On a level playing field, the typical active killer would be a no-contest against anyone reasonably capable of defending themselves.”

    • “They absolutely control life and death until they stop at their leisure or are stopped.” They do not take hostages, do not negotiate.

    • They generally try to avoid police, do not hide or lie in wait for officers and “typically fold quickly upon armed confrontation.”

    • 90% commit suicide on-site. “Surrender or escape attempts are unlikely.”
    I think that the quotes from his study above are extremely enlightening to some and accurately describe the typical shooter in these type incidents. To say whether or not the lack GFZ signs are are a deterent is much more complex than the analysis of the average shooter. There may be some cases where it causes someone to pick another location but usually the ones we hear about are "revenge" shootings against a particular person or group. The lack of a GFZ sign may deter a person from acting at all but if they are that crazy I doubt it.

  8. #27
    that study needs to be put in the hands of every senator and delagate of VA before the attempt to override Gov. Tim Kaine's antigun vetos this week.
    We would be better off with BORAT as PRESIDENT!!!!

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