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Thread: Hornady Critical Defense vs Critical Duty

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by W4DM View Post
    id take this with a grain of salt, but i read on another forum that a guy shot through an old car from the trunk end. the bullet pierced the trunk, back seat, front seat, thru the dash, then bounced around off the engine.

    i have no idea if this is true or not, but worth trying out if anyone has the means. if it is true it probably wont have any trouble penetrating a door. terminal ballistics thru the BG of course might not be ideal.

    just a thought
    I wonder what caliber that was? After piercing the trunk there isn't much metal before it hits the firewall.

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  3. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by engine12 View Post
    As some of the other people have mentioned, the reason I would prefer to have the "Duty" round is for the possibility of a car jacking, where I will have my firearm at easy reach for when the BG walks up with a gun pointed at me and I can penetrate the plastic and sheet metal of my vehicles door....
    Check out this video for dealing with a carjacker.
    It might be more effective. <G>

  4. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by alduane View Post
    Anything in life has tradeoffs and ammunition is no exception. Better penetration means that over penetration is more likely. The needs of the civilian compared to Law Enforcement are different in that we have the right to self defense but they have the duty to prevent crime. The Police aren't supposed retreat if possible but we are. The difference between Defense and Duty is Critical.
    I have searched every resource I currently have access to for over-penetration law cases. Outcome: This is not the big issue recently raised in our discussions. The REAL issue is actually hitting the target.

    Below is a chart from one department study (Miami) I found that might help you see what Iím talking about. As you can see, they have a 65% miss rate with revolvers and 75% miss rate with semi-automatics. Did you get that? 75% of the rounds fired are misses. And people are concerned about a problem with over- penetration?

    (Miami) Metro-Dade Police Department
    Statistical Abstract of Shooting Incidents, 1988-1994
    SHOTS THAT HIT INTENDED TARGET, BY TYPE OF FIREARM
    HANDGUN TYPE REVOLVER SEMI-AUTOMATIC TOTAL HIT PROBABILITY
    HIT SUSPECT 19 (35%) 17 (25%) 36 (30%)
    MISSED SUSPECT 35 (65%) 51 (75%) 86 (70%)
    TOTAL 54 (100%) 68 (100%) 122 (100%)

    Recently published Metro-Dade Police 1990-2001 shooting data shed more light on issues seen elsewhere. During that 12-year period, Metro-Dade Police fired about 1,300 bullets at suspects, and missed more than 1,100 times. This suggests that Miami police fared no better than a 15.4% hit ratio, even though many of these incidents involved suspects who were later determined to be unarmed.

    In yet another department study (NYPD), only 9% of the bullets hit their intended targets; 91% of the rounds fired MISSED.

    NYPD GUNFIGHT STATISTICS IN 2000
    HIT PROBABILITY 9%
    SHOTS FIRED PER GUNFIGHT 16.8
    SHOTS FIRED PER OFFICER 6.9

    We do not have an over-penetration issue; we have an issue around NOT hitting the bad guys.

  5. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stan45 View Post
    I have searched every resource I currently have access to for over-penetration law cases. Outcome: This is not the big issue recently raised in our discussions. The REAL issue is actually hitting the target.

    We do not have an over-penetration issue; we have an issue around NOT hitting the bad guys.
    There is no doubt that the main issue is hitting the target. Any penetration of anything other than the target is bad. I don't worry about what ammo I was using, if I ever go to court, I just want to be sure it was justified. To me the issue is stopping the threat and expending all the energy on the threat. A legally armed citizen isn't going to have as many instances where he needs to shoot through barriers as the police would. In an ideal world we'd have dials on our guns to set the penetration we need at the moment. In our world though we have to make a decision based on what we feel are our most likely scenarios. Unless we have some members that have been involved in a self defense shooting then we are all just guessing what it will be like and what we'll need.

  6. #45
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    found this on youtube. you can fast forward to 3:02 for the glass shattering. 532 yards is a looong way


  7. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by alduane View Post
    Check out this video for dealing with a carjacker.
    It might be more effective. <G>
    I've yet to read a report from anyplace about police shootings that wasn't really demoralizing. The most disturbing statistic is the number of times they shoot the wrong person. This isn't bias on my part, the numbers are what the numbers are, published by the departments themselves. I almost can't avoid the thought that the only reason they don't shoot more innocent people is they are such bad shots.

    That said, I've no way to get similar statistics on the civilian defense population's performance. The NRA analysis indicates civilians shoot less per incident (2 shots is usual, or something like that), and there is other analysis that indicates civilians are 5 times less likely to shoot the wrong person, but that's not surprising given the difference in missions. We are successful if we can get them to stop attacking and survive, LEO's have a more difficult mission that includes capture and arrest. We also have the advantage that we are only firing at folks who are coming at us because they want to, so they are pretty easy to identify as bad guys. LEO's are looking for the badguy who doesn't want to be found and have much less certainty. Tough job.

    I did read a report about a department, Baltimore (?) that had done some things that significantly improved their performance in both cases, but I can't find it now.

    Fitch

  8. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by jg1967 View Post
    Exactly. Critical Duty is literally overkill for self defense applications. As somebody else in another review said it, you can't seriously want to shoot thru barriers in a self defense situation. That would most likely turn the self defense into a gunfight.
    Let's see now. Someone in my house shooting at me from behind a wall or wooden/glass door, furniture, refrigerator door, table, couch or other object in my house. Shooting through my car window or door to stop a carjacker from doing the same but only in reverse. In a store with someone shooting at me from behind a display or counter. I can go on and on about legitimate SD situations when shooting through a barrier would be necessary. Take a few training classes and you will learn why shooting through barriers is important to even civilians. You will also learn that penetration and expansion is key to stopping an attacker. People come in all shapes and sizes so it is impossible to make a bullet that will recognize how far to go before it exits a body and then stop. Go to Box'O Truth to see how even the frangilbe ammo goes through lots of walls. All ammo can over penetrate and LEO ammo can stay in the body if it hits bone and dense muscle. Heck, ask any hunter, combat veteran or LEO, as they actually know.

    Hornady knows how to sell their ammo to civilians even though you would be hard pressed to find real world shooting results with it like you would for Gold Dots, Golden Sabers, Hydra-Shoks, etc.. Hornady was known for their XTP bullet for hunting. Now they have gotten creative and entered the civilian market at a lower price point than the most popular ammo and despite not one study showing real world performance of their ammo, people are already talking about their LEO ammo and over penetration. We do not even know that it actually works in humans. All we know is what it does in ballistic gel which does not have bones, organs or dense muscle tissue. If you know where to find real world results in any meaningful statistical number about Hornady ammo, please let me know because I cannot find any info on this. Everyone knows that labeling ammo as for LEO use just increases demand by civilians. Much like the exodus to the calibers and guns they use. Many people suggest using FMJ in .380 guns as JHP do not reliabily expand. Those FMJ penetrate 19 inches in ballistic gel so mixed messages are being sent out. We want penetration. We do not want a bullet that can be stopped by a closet door in your house. :)

  9. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by alduane View Post
    Turn it into a gun fight AND a prison term more than likely.
    Interesting. So according to your informed legal opinion based on legal education and experience, I would go to prison if I shot a Bad Guy trying to break into the safe room in my house rather than wait for him to break the door down and step into plain view first. Very interesting indeed. I guess it would mean prison too if I shot a carjacker through my car window or is it better to first roll the window down, ask the car jacker to bend over so you can see if anyone is standing behind him and then shoot?

    I was accosted by three men in a deserted parking lot once. Each of them was hiding behind a car. I was glad I had LEO quality ammo in my gun and not something that would not penetrate sheet metal.

    It seems that those with informed opinions about such things and have been used as expert witnesses, all say to use what the LEO use to avoid the prosecutor using your choice of ammo against you. Just check out any of Mas Ayoob's book's as he is often hired as an expert witness in self defense shootings. He often repeats to use LEO ammo becaue it has street proven results and is easier to defend in court. Yet here we have a thread with some posters telling us that we should not use LEO ammo as it can put us in prison. Wow am I confused.

  10. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by alduane View Post
    After piercing the trunk there isn't much metal before it hits the firewall.
    Actually it would depend on what type of car it was. If we are talking about shooting from outside the car through the trunk, there could be a steel panel before the backseat as well. If the car has fold down rear seats, the back of the seat might have a heavy plastic panel on it at least.

    Another post mentioned retreating from confrontation. Depends where you live, it's not required to do so where I live.

    Lastly, what is the difference if a law enforcement officers bullet over penetrates and kills an innocent person or a citizens bullet does? Nothing, the innocent person is still dead. There is every possibility that a civilian might be more careful than a law enforcement officer in the awareness of the surroundings. Whether a trained citizen shooter or trained officer all are people; all are capable of making the same mistakes.

  11. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by alduane View Post
    There is no doubt that the main issue is hitting the target. Any penetration of anything other than the target is bad. I don't worry about what ammo I was using, if I ever go to court, I just want to be sure it was justified. To me the issue is stopping the threat and expending all the energy on the threat. A legally armed citizen isn't going to have as many instances where he needs to shoot through barriers as the police would. In an ideal world we'd have dials on our guns to set the penetration we need at the moment. In our world though we have to make a decision based on what we feel are our most likely scenarios. Unless we have some members that have been involved in a self defense shooting then we are all just guessing what it will be like and what we'll need.
    The Presumptive Hazards of Over-Penetration

    Basic Wound Ballistic Terminal Performance Facts

    Thoughts on Service Pistols, along with Duty and Self-Defense Ammo Recommendations

    Best Choices for Self Defense Ammo

    "It's easier to avoid conflict than it is to survive it" - SGB

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