Hornady Critical Defense vs Critical Duty - Page 7
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Thread: Hornady Critical Defense vs Critical Duty

  1. #61
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    On the subject of heavier bullets, I found (and purchased) HydraShok in 135grn weight. Anyone have any info on this load? I am sorry to post this here it's just that the thought hit me and do I did.
    Thanks for any help.

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  3. #62
    I believe the statement about over penatration are greatly overstated.
    If you need to use your gun for SD remember Rule No. 4 BE SURE OF YOUR TARGET AND WHAT IS BEYOND IT.
    You have a bad guy he is shooting, it does not mean you can shoot.
    The bad guy does not care what he hits, but we are above that, you may have to seek cover and wait till bystanders are clear before you can fire.
    “An armed society is a polite society.”

  4. #63
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    I the nine mm, there is a difference of length between Critical Defense and Critical Duty. Might cause chamfering issues.
    Just my two cents.

  5. #64
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    http://www.chuckhawks.com/ammo_by_anonymous.htm
    This has some good ammo information.

  6. #65
    [QUOTE=GaPatriot;275468]IMO,if the "Critical Duty" round over penetrates the human body,it does not meet the FBIs criteria of a duty/defense round. Their criteria calls for a round that will penetrate the human body,but will not exit the body.
    QUOTE]

    From
    Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness
    FBI Academy Firearms Unit
    Page 12


    An issue that must be addressed is the fear of over penetration widely expressed on the part of law enforcement. The concern that a bullet would pass through the body of a subject and injure an innocent bystander is clearly exaggerated. Any review of law enforcement shootings will reveal that the great majority of shots fired by officers do not hit any subject at all. It should be obvious that the relatively few shots that do hit a subject are not more dangerous to bystanders than shots that miss the subject entirely.

    Also, a bullet that completely penetrates a subject will give up a great deal of energy doing so. The skin on the exit side of the body is tough and flexible. Experiments have shown it has the same resistance to bullet passage as approximately four inches of tissue.

    Choosing a bullet because of relatively shallow penetration will seriously comprmise weapon effectiveness, and needlessly endanger the lives of law enforcement officers using it. No law enforcement officer has lost his life because a bullet over penetrated his adversary, and virtually none have ever been sued for hitting an innocent bystander through an adversary. On the other hand, tragically large numbers of officers have been killed because their bullets did not penetrate deeply enough.


    I just read through the FBI information and my notes on this topic and I could not find your statment.
    If you have it please post the information.
    “An armed society is a polite society.”

  7. #66
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    You guys make some good points. Since posting my original question, I sold my Kahr PM9 and bought a Glock 19 Gen 4. I think this pretty much solves any concerns that I might have had about ammunition performance. So if Critical Duty could potentially have an over penetration issue for civilian SD, that leads me to ask what caliber you guys are carrying? No sarcasm here, I'm actually trying to gather as much knowledge on the stopping power/penetration topic as possible. If Critical Duty in 9mm could over penetrate, wouldn't that mean that calibers such as .40S&W or .45ACP could possible have over penetration concerns regardless what you're carrying?? It seems to me that most .40S&W rounds that I look at have velocity and energy ratings equal to or higher than the 9mm Critical Duty +P's, but they are carrying even more mass, which should mean even more penetration. And then there's .45ACP... usually 200+ grains... need I say more there? The reason I'm bringing all of this up is because I recently shot a Glock 30 for the first time and was VERY pleased with it. I've been wondering if I should switch from the G19 to the G30, but penetration was a concern of mine (not to mention added bulk in the width department). Both of the .40 cal's that I've shot were very unpleasant to shoot for me, and that included a Sig, so I'm not really interested in that caliber. Would you guys recommend staying with 9mm then?
    "...to keep, meaning 'it's mine, and you can't have it'"...
    -Ted Nugent
    on the right to keep and bear arms

  8. #67
    Critical duty will NOT over penetrate. It passes the FBI testing with flying colors.

    I carry a 45 with 230 gr bullets. In the Critical Duty Hornady does not have a .45 acp round.
    In the Critical Defense line they have a 200 gr bullet. I believe a 230 gr bullet does a better job getting to the CNS.
    “An armed society is a polite society.”

  9. #68

    Smile

    Quote Originally Posted by m.ritz View Post
    but penetration was a concern of mine (not to mention added bulk in the width department). Both of the .40 cal's that I've shot were very unpleasant to shoot for me, and that included a Sig, so I'm not really interested in that caliber. Would you guys recommend staying with 9mm then?
    Have you been shooting a long time? I was originally shying away from the 40S&W as people told me the recoil was worse than a 45acp. Well, today I own an Springfield EMP40, M&P40Compact and a Kahr MK40. Except for the M&P they are steel guns. The 40 is a different kind of recoil than a 9mm and the 45 is as well. Many people say the 45 is a push and the 9 is a flip. What's the 40? maybe a snap. Personally, the LCP380 is more punishing than any of my 40's, because it's sooo light and narrow. My Kahr MK40 is light but has a Hogue Handall Jr over the plastic grip, it's a SMALL gun, smaller than most anything in it's caliber class including 9mm guns. It's one of my favorites as is the EMP40, which they make in a 9mm as well. If you want a small 1911 style gun but not a 45, it's a good choice in my opinion. With regard to over penetration, I've read dozens of articles and whop knows how many opinions on the subject, including from Law Enforcement. Instead of be so concerned about penetration, be concerned about being accurate, comfortable with what you are shooting and knowing when it is justifiable to shoot someone and what is behind your target if you miss. More often the missed shots will be the issue in a shootout, not over penetration of the intended target. The reason many say a 9mm is not a good choice, is due to the velocity and small size of the projectile. A 45 on the other hand is slow in comparison and the projectile is quite a bit larger. When it hits the flesh it's mass and expansion will slow it down more quickly (like larger brake shoes on a car). Being larger it also has a greater chance of hitting bone and doing greater internal damage. The 9mm hits so quickly that is doesn't expand as well and therefore does not slow down as rapidly. The over penetration fear is mostly relevant if you are using FMJ bullets and not known to be an issue with HP's. Here's a quote from an FBI report from 1989 "Even a .22 rimfire penetrating the brain will cause immediate incapacitation in most cases." Of course, they are not saying you should use a 22LR or 22WMR, but the fact is, shot placement is of extreme importance and they go on to say: "Given adequate penetration, a larger diameter bullet will have an edge in wounding effectiveness." and "The concern that a bullet would pass through the body of a subject and injure an innocent bystander is clearly exaggerated." And what is the caliber of choice at the FBI, 40S&W and some 45 ACP issued weapons still exist. A 9mm is nice to practice with because they are inexpensive compared to 40's or 45's, I personally think they handle quite a bit differently too, and would rather shoot the 40 & 45; although I like my 357 revolver a lot too

  10. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by m.ritz View Post
    You guys make some good points. Since posting my original question, I sold my Kahr PM9 and bought a Glock 19 Gen 4. I think this pretty much solves any concerns that I might have had about ammunition performance. So if Critical Duty could potentially have an over penetration issue for civilian SD, that leads me to ask what caliber you guys are carrying? No sarcasm here, I'm actually trying to gather as much knowledge on the stopping power/penetration topic as possible. If Critical Duty in 9mm could over penetrate, wouldn't that mean that calibers such as .40S&W or .45ACP could possible have over penetration concerns regardless what you're carrying?? It seems to me that most .40S&W rounds that I look at have velocity and energy ratings equal to or higher than the 9mm Critical Duty +P's, but they are carrying even more mass, which should mean even more penetration. And then there's .45ACP... usually 200+ grains... need I say more there? The reason I'm bringing all of this up is because I recently shot a Glock 30 for the first time and was VERY pleased with it. I've been wondering if I should switch from the G19 to the G30, but penetration was a concern of mine (not to mention added bulk in the width department). Both of the .40 cal's that I've shot were very unpleasant to shoot for me, and that included a Sig, so I'm not really interested in that caliber. Would you guys recommend staying with 9mm then?
    I like 9mm because my second shot performance with it is much better than it is with .40 or .45. I could like a Glock 30, but it is slightly thicker than a 19 and holds less ammunition, and I don't shoot it as well for the second shot. I can't convince myself one round of .45 is better than two rounds of modern 9mm defense ammo.

    Of the three, using the IDPA classification test as a discriminator, I shoot 9mm the best with my Glock 19 and 26, .45 second best with a G30, and .40 a far distant third with the Glock 23.

    My recommendation would be to stay with the G19. I think it's at least in the contest for best carry pistol made. Stop reading articles about guns, buy ammo, and go to the range instead. The practice time will do you far more good than changing guns. You have a good one. Go shoot it.

    Fitch

  11. #70
    What about the "beyond the badguy" factor? I wonder if any bad guy has ever turned around and said "Damn buddy! How what kind of round did you just shoot me with?"

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