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  1. #11
    He broke the performances down into three catagories:

    1) Average = the glaser performed as well as any conventional bullet would;
    2) Failure = a conventional bullet would have provided superior results; and,
    3) Success = the glaser accomplished what would not have been possible for a
    conventional bullet.

    Average Results:

    1) Texas, office setting, range 5-6 yards. 9mm Glaser flatpoint. Impacted upper
    right torso near nipple at a slight quartering angle, perforating and
    shredding the pectoral muscle and shattering two ribs. The Glaser had
    disintegrated by this point. Shot pellets and bone fragments continued
    penetrating creating a 5 inch dia. wound in lung. The clinically lethal
    wounds were inflicted by the balance of the rounds fired. Some of these
    were Rem 115 JHP which failed to expand at this off-the-muzzle range and
    perforated the victim.

    2) San Diego, CA. .38 SPL +P Glaser. The bullet impacted the upper torso on
    a nearly frontal shot; this is supposed to be the best possible condition
    for a Glaser to work. The bullet penetrated between the ribs on the right
    side saturating the top of the liver. The victim collapsed after 10 seconds
    from a profusely bleeding wound.

    3) Indianapolis, 9mm flatnose Glaser. The shot was pulled low and impacted the
    knee cap destroying both the knee cap and the distal femur and proximal
    tibia. The individual dropped to the ground but was still able to discharge
    his shotgun. He was taken out by torso hits from a standard .38 SPL. Any
    load with an expanding bullet or a non-expanding bullet would have had the
    same results on the knee joint. The big claim to fame for the Glaser in this
    case was a non-perforating wound.

    Failures:

    4) San Diego, .45 ACP flatnose Glaser. The victim was first shot in the liver
    by a .22 LR and fled the house. Her attacker followed after rearming with
    the .45 Auto and fired the first Glaser at a distance of 2 feet. The angle
    of impact was "directly accross the chest", I don't know what direction
    this refers to exactly. Penetration was 4 inches from the right side.
    Sanow claims that whatever direction he was refering to above, the bullet
    path was "totally insignificant in terms of stopping power". Go figure.
    Anyway, she stopped running after being hit and then started again. The
    second Glaser also entered the right side from about 45 degrees from the
    front on a line that would have gone between the lungs and ended at the
    left shoulder blade. This shot was a little lower than the first which I
    think means the first must have impacted somewhere around the armpit. Again
    this second shot never entered the body cavity but rather curved around the
    rib cage and came to rest in a fat layer. The victim slowed down and
    collapsed, Sanow says because of blood loss due to the .22LR in the liver.
    She was excuted by a third Glaser behind the ear.

    5) Texas, .38 SPL +P. The bullet impacted the upper arm either hitting a heavy
    bicep or the bicep and humerous. It disintegrated in the arm causing massive
    soft tissue damage but no pellets entered the thorax.

    6) .38 SPL fired from a 2 inch Colt. The woman is on the floor firing up at a
    steep angle. Distance less than 4 feet. The Glaser impacted just above the
    right hip on a line passing through the liver and the heart. Penetration
    was 3 inches and the pellets never even made it to the liver. The robber
    ran 22 blocks and checked himself into the hospital there.

    7) .38 SPL +P Glaser from a 4 inch revolver at a distance of 8-9 feet. The
    bullet impacted the sternum at an angle of 30-45 degrees but first hit
    a large heavy zipper. The bullet disintgrated carrying part of the zipper
    below the skin. All of the metal stayed between the skin and the rib cage.
    The result was a very bloody surface wound and the stopping power was "from
    victim compliance and nothing else". Remember this phrase bacause we will
    need it again for one of the "successes".

    Successes:

    8) Two police officers firing .357 Mag flatnose and 9mm flatnose Glasers. The
    distance was short as it took place in a basement. The .357 bounced off of
    the top of the forehead having no effect. The 9mm struck the lower abdomen
    off-center well to one side resulting in a large amount of abdominal damage
    and the ultimate loss of a significant amount of intestines. The felon
    dropped instantly.

    9) El Salvador, paramilitary instructor firing a 9mm Glaser at an ambusher.
    Impacted from a quartering angle about mid-torso producing a large
    shallow entrance wound just under the diaphram and saturated the spleen.
    The soldier rolled head over heels in mid-stride and was found dead a few
    moments later.

    10)Kentucky, 9mm Glaser and a 9mm Silvertip of unknown generation. The Silver-
    tip was first and the nose collapsed inwards. The Glaser struck the groin
    area, eviscerating the felon dropping him. Pelletes were found in the chest
    cavity and down in the thighs.

    11)Florida, 9mm Glaser, distance 4 feet. A knife wielder was hit in the right
    shoulder under the collar bone dropping the knife. He took two steps,
    doubled over, going down to one knee; picked up the knife and then walked
    61 yards to his residence. He was relatively mobile and dangerous for 3
    minutes after being shot. The entrance hole was nickel sized, the bullet
    disintgrating after 2 inches shattering the clavical and ruptureing the
    sub-clavical artery. If stopping power "from victim compliance and no other
    reason" is the criterion of a failure, this sure sounds like one to me.

    12)Texas, .357 Mag. The victim was struck from behind and a slight angle with
    the bullet path on a line from the spine to the heart. The slug missed the
    spinal column and disintegrated instantly. Very few pellets reached the
    heart but they saturated the pulmonary arteries and veins. The felon dropped
    immediately but not due these wounds. A chip of one vertebral body was blown
    off and into the spinal cord. The bullet did not appear to impact the spinal
    column and the fragment was attributed to the "large and early stretch
    cavity, a stretch cavity typical of Glasers".

    13).38 SPL +P Glaser from a snubby. Range was under 10 feet. This was the
    "classic scenario for the Glaser". The slug struck the lower part of the
    sternum from a fully frontal shot, saturating the heart and perforating
    the aorta.

    14)Chicago, .44 SPL flatnose Glasers, 3 inch barrel. Five rounds fired, only
    two impacted. One struck an extremity, the other struck the upper torso
    in the area of the left nipple at a slight angle from the front shredding
    the left lung and the left side of the heart. "As is typical of the Glaser
    no part of the projectile overpenetrated to endanger others"; that job was
    left to the three rounds that missed their intended target totally.

    There you have it. By my count only 6 successes, 5 failures and 3 average
    performances. If your assailants are so co-operative that they are willing
    to present the "classic scenario for the Glaser" why not just have them lie
    down spreadeagled and then you could just put one in the back of their skulls
    if you really felt the need to shoot.

    Seriously, while the data above are limited in number the picture they present
    is not very promising especially for a super slug. Wharever you may think of
    Evan Marshall's work, by his criteria some of Sanow's "successes" are really
    "failures". Furthermore, the "classic scenario for the Glaser" just happens to
    be the classic scenario for any round and if a .357 Mag 125 JHP is going to
    work you would certainly expect it to work with the absolutely perfect shot
    placements of "successes" #13 & 14. Some of these so-called successes would
    have been successful with most any high perf. conventional defense round and
    I would classify them as just average performance. If you make the adjustment
    to the classifications that common sense dictates you wind up with a cartridge
    that does not perform any better that our better self-defense rounds and that
    can produce some abominal failures that would not occur with a bullet of
    conventional hollow-point construction.

    For the record, if you have read the Marshall/Sanow "Definitive Study" book
    you will recognize these 14 cases. In spite of "Handgun Stopping Power"
    having been published several years after the combat Handgun article refer-
    enced above, they did not list any additional field reports for the Glasers.
    The reasons for this were not stated in the book, so I guess the above reports
    can be considered as representative of Glaser performance as any more recent
    shootings would.

    I hope this will help of some of you newcomers to the group to deal with
    the Glaser myths.

    All this information was taking from Glaser Safety Slugs (Geoff Kotzar)

    THEY MAY TAKE OUR LIVES BUT THEY'LL NEVER TAKE OUR FREEDOM!!!!!

  2.   
  3. #12
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    thanks for the input I think I will stickto hollow points for now,but it sounds like the glassers are good in certin senarios
    "When you care enough to send the best... Shoot a .45"

  4. Glaser's aren't the best

    If you want the best 9mm ammunition for stopping power and penetration, then use Winchester Black Talons which are very hard but not impossible to find (no longer made to my knowledge - but available at places like the gunbroker's auction site). They penetrate like a FMJ but expand even wider than a normal hollowpoint. I have several cases which I don't use for practice shooting but keep each of my magazines (inclluding the one in my Beretta 92FS) filled with this highly potent ammo. When it was available, it was for military and police use only - though citizens could (and can still) get it at auction sites like always.

    The problem with Glaser Safety slugs is that it breaks apart too quickly and although you do get a wide penetration (wider than just about any other round), it generally isn't very deep. Furthermore, even level 1 vests can stop Glasers - perhaps even a heavy enough leather jacket would do the trick (or at least take enough off it to leave the bad guy fully functional to return fire. That won't happen with a Black Talon round. Granted the Black talon isn't as safe as a Glaser for penetrating through walls, so there are some applications for it - but NOT for stopping power.

    Since someone metnioned shotguns in an earlier post, for shotguns (at least mine), I use 3.5" OO shot - which will put down even the most determined bad guy (unless he's wearing a vest - in which case you need to go for a shot beyond the best - head shot or, if you must, crotch shot - though that won't necessarily put him out of action even if it does do some serious damage). I have a bandolier with all sorts of specialty 12 gauge shells and extra OO shells (fleshette, AP slugs, flamethrower, bola, Pepper spray,...) - but I'd never really get to use them because I'd be dead if the 7 shells it holds wasn't enough (unless it's a long firefight and then I might use something exotic if nothing else is working {like an AP slug if the bad guy is wearing a vest** or unless I have time to load shells which will follow whatever is in the chamber - and I might do that to make sure I don't run out though again a firefight lasting over 7 shells long is already one where the chances of survival have been reduced considerably).

  5. #14

    .380 glasser blue type safety slug

    In an accidental shooting, where a .380 blue tipped glasser was discharged, I was seriously disappointed with the performance. Everyone says I'm lucky, but I'm not so sure...

    I was attempting to lower the hammer on a Baretta 85 I have owned for years and carried almost every day for over 9 years before moving on to another larger .40 cal. I was careless in handling it: I had the gun partly pulled out of the soft leather swede holster on what I thought as a firm enough grip instead of having a solid hand to metal grasp on it. The hammer slipped.

    The round went through the light swede holster that was flush against my skin and sideways into my palm. I had two exit wounds from the brass 'container' on the heel of my hand (less than 2" of travel) BUT was left with most all of the #12 shot- about 50 pellets. These are currently just below the surface of the skin at the heel (about 1.5' of travel through) mostly clumped in one area. The palm bones were untouched, so that can't be a contributing factor for lack of penetration.

    I was told that the local LEs stopped using it because it would require 5 or 6 of these cartridges to 'stop' (not kill) someone if lucky. Those unlucky LEs who also had ADs were left with non-lethal PITA wounds except for the numerous pellets left inside them. Basically it was a non-lethal mess since the pellets were too small to extract all of them from the tissue. There was a directive to stop using these, understandably, to protect their own LEs.

    I didn't know I had even shot myself until I began to see drops of blood on the floor (after being disappointed at the mere fact of an AD in my home) about 5 to 7 seconds seconds later after trying to see where the bullet may have hit across the room and finally looking down. There was no pain what so ever at the onset - where one would expect being shot at point blank would have at least made some impression.

    If you PM me with an email address, I'll show you the pictures of the gun, the post op x-ray and the wound.

    As a consumer, I am very disappointed with the lack of effectiveness this would have had on a BG. I would advise someone to use 'real' bullets for the first rounds and then these to follow up for spite shots.

    It is noted in a previous response, these do not fire with a shotgun effect, thus they would be less suitable for blinding a BG than a rat shot cartridge (or shotgun) - they are a frangible projectile.

    However, the numerous pellets are almost impossible to extract - should you find a surgeon who has time to do so.


    I hope this helps someone survive and tend to enforce that sometimes familiarity can cause over confidence leading to an accidental discharge (AD).

  6. As a consumer, I am very disappointed with the lack of effectiveness this would have had on a BG. I would advise someone to use 'real' bullets for the first rounds and then these to follow up for spite shots.
    My daily carry is a Bersa 380 with the first two rounds frangible +p and Honady FTX after that. My reason for this is that I am mostly in crowded low threat environments and do not want to chance a shoot through. If the conditions warrant it I switch to my Ruger P85 with Hornady FTX. As in most cases a one type of carry does not fit all situations and one must adapt to their environment.

  7. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by stateofbliss View Post
    As a consumer, I am very disappointed with the lack of effectiveness this would have had on a BG. I would advise someone to use 'real' bullets for the first rounds and then these to follow up for spite shots.

    It is noted in a previous response, these do not fire with a shotgun effect, thus they would be less suitable for blinding a BG than a rat shot cartridge (or shotgun) - they are a frangible projectile.

    However, the numerous pellets are almost impossible to extract - should you find a surgeon who has time to do so.


    I hope this helps someone survive and tend to enforce that sometimes familiarity can cause over confidence leading to an accidental discharge (AD).

    As a consumer, if I were in your situation, I would request a refund from Glaser. The ammo you are carrying did not do what it was advertised to do.

    I advise my students to carry the same or similar ammo that local LE carry. Standard JHP ammo is more than adequate for SD use. Just about any cartridge can cause over penetration. Key thing to remember is SA. Be aware of your backstop BEFORE firing. I realize that in a SD situation, things happen very quickly. Only way to be prepared (to some extent) is to practice. Force on force training is great for this. Although not an exact substitute, airsoft is a great tool to practice this kind of training.

    Lastly, not to add salt to the wound, but you had a "ND" or "Negligent Discharge", not a "AD" or "Accidental Discharge". Primary difference would be that in a ND, YOU caused the firearm to discharge, meaning that you did something like touch the trigger, that would make the gun discharge. In a true AD situation, the firearm would have discharged due to a mechanical failure. A good example would be a semi-auto pistol with a decocker. Maybe you hit the decocker lever without touching the trigger, which caused the firearm to discharge. In my experience, 99% of "accidental discharge" situations are actually "negligent discharges".



    gf
    "A few well placed shots with a .22LR is a lot better than a bunch of solid misses with a .44 mag!" Glock Armorer, NRA Chief RSO, Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun, Muzzleloading Rifle, Muzzleloading Shotgun, and Home Firearm Safety Training Counselor

  8. #17
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    Frangible Ammo

    Quote Originally Posted by Glock Fan View Post
    My Air Marshall buddy told me he uses frangible ammunition. I'll see if I can check out his duty ammo the next time he's in town. The little blue ball at the tip of the projectile shuld be a dead giveaway. ;-)



    gf
    I'm going to have to post some pictures of some frangible ammo I have shot. I was quite impressed with how the rounds perform. Very high velocities. Around 1850 fps from my Glock 22. Will go through a 4 inch oak post like a hot knife through butter. They are supposed to fragment/disintegrate upon hitting anything harder than the material they are constructed with. A 1-gallon jug of water is total destruction. They now have hollow point frangibles for those that want to roll their own.

  9. #18
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    I've always been a little bit "shakey" about Glasers and Magsafes. I realize that they have the success stories, but they also have many failures, like the bad guy wearing a leather jacket, and it opens up and fragments in the jacket, with only a surface wound to the flesh.
    Let's face facts, since a bullet won't "Knock You Down" as in the movies, (unless it's a 50 BMG that literally blows your body parts off and you fall), then penetration is what incapacitates and causes the damage. You have to get to the vital organs, the things that make us work, live, breath, stay concious, etc. If you fail to cause organ damage and severe blood loss, the bad guy is still going to be active. That along with shot placement and or hitting the target in vital areas, is the only answer. Until we come up with low yield nuclear warhead rounds that explode in the bad guy and vaporize half of his body, and 2 others nearby die of radiation sickness within a week, I'll stick with the best hollowpoint, or largest FMJ or Flat Point I can find.
    There's Something Goin' On Here, and it Ain't Funny!!!

  10. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by stateofbliss View Post
    . There was no pain what so ever at the onset - where one would expect being shot at point blank would have at least made some impression.


    Not necessarily so. I've been shot twice. Both times it didn't hurt until I realized I'd been shot, then it hurt like hell. I understand that the body has a mechanism to prevent pain. It's all in the brain, so to speak.

    The first time I was shot in the left foot with a .357 that might have had .38's in it. Dude turned and drew on me and fired before he got the gun up. After I cuffed him I had already walked a bit and knew my foot was hurting. thought I had a rock in my shoe or something. After I sat down to get the rock out I saw the hole in the toe of my shoe. I was trying to figure out why I had a hole in my new expensive shoes and I turned my foot over and the hole was in the bottom also. I'm thinking "****, did that dude shoot me? Doesn't feel like it" I untied my shoe and took it off and saw the hole in my sock and it was soaked with blood. I pulled the sock off (still didn't really hurt much) and when I took the sock off my 4th toe (beside the pinkie toe) fell off. Man, it hurt like hell after that! I was taken to the ER where they stitched it back on. It's still there today, but the bones fused together so it doesn't wiggle. It just sits there.


    The second time I was shot in the face from about a foot away with a pocket pistol loaded with .22 magnum. I was serving a warrant and the perp answered the door. He had one of those little stainless revolvers like fit in a belt buckle palmed in his right hand. He brought his hand up and I heard the shot, then I heard a second shot, then I heard a third shot; or what I thought was. He only fired once. The bullet struck me in the right fold of my nose and I stumbled back and fell as my partner grabbed the perp. I stood up and everytime my heart beat a stream of blood spurted out. I reached up and felt the hole, then stuck my finger in it to stop the blood loss. The hospital was about 2 miles away. He called for an ambulance as another unit arrived. I told him he had to take me to the hospital or I would bleed to death before the ambulance got me there. I remember getting in the back seat of the car and that's all I remember until I woke up in the emergency room (in and out of consciousness). I saw the car later, there was blood all over it like he had killed a hog in there or something.

    When I got shot, it didn't hurt. When I stuck my finger in the hole it didn't hurt. When i was in the ER it didn't hurt but I may have been doped up by then, but the next day it was awful, and my head was black and about the size of a basketball. The bullet struck my nose area, fragmented into pieces. The bulk of it went thru my brain and lodged in my second vertebrate.

    STILL THERE TODAY! They were afraid messing with it would paralyze me because it was lodged in the spine. I believe the fist bang was the actual shot, the second bang was the facial bone crushing and maybe the third bang was the bullet hitting the spine. I told the officers in the ER that he fired three shots. But he only fired one, so I don't know. All I know is that I heard three distinct simultaneous "cracks".
    "If it is time to bury your guns, then it is time to dig them up!"

  11. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by NCjones View Post
    Not necessarily so. I've been shot twice. Both times it didn't hurt until I realized I'd been shot, then it hurt like hell. I understand that the body has a mechanism to prevent pain. It's all in the brain, so to speak.

    The first time I was shot in the left foot with a .357 that might have had .38's in it. the second time I was shot in the face from about a foot away with a pocket pistol loaded with .22 magnum. I was serving a warrant and the perp answered the door. He had one of those little stainless revolvers like fit in a belt buckle palmed in his right hand. He brought his hand up and I heard the shot, then I heard a second shot, then I heard a third shot; or what I thought was. He only fired once. The bullet struck me in the right fold of my nose and I stumbled back and fell as my partner grabbed the perp. I stood up and everytime my heart beat a stream of blood spurted out. I reached up and felt the hole, then stuck my finger in it to stop the blood loss. The hospital was about 2 miles away. He called for an ambulance as another unit arrived. I told him he had to take me to the hospital or I would bleed to death before the ambulance got me there. I remember getting in the back seat of the car and that's all I remember until I woke up in the emergency room (in and out of consciousness). I saw the car later, there was blood all over it like he had killed a hog in there or something.

    When I got shot, it didn't hurt. When I stuck my finger in the hole it didn't hurt. When i was in the ER it didn't hurt but I may have been doped up by then, but the next day it was awful, and my head was black and about the size of a basketball. The bullet struck my nose area, fragmented into pieces. The bulk of it went thru my brain and lodged in my second vertebrate.

    STILL THERE TODAY! They were afraid messing with it would paralyze me because it was lodged in the spine. I believe the fist bang was the actual shot, the second bang was the facial bone crushing and maybe the third bang was the bullet hitting the spine. I told the officers in the ER that he fired three shots. But he only fired one, so I don't know. All I know is that I heard three distinct simultaneous "cracks".
    Glad you're still with us! Great that the BG used a .22 mag and not a larger caliber. I would imagine things could have been a lot worse. The second and third "crack" noises you heard may have been as you described, possibly the BG dropping his gun? If your partner drew down on the BG, possibly the "snap" from holster? Lots of possibilities, just glad that they got you to the hospital in time for the doctors to patch you up.



    gf
    "A few well placed shots with a .22LR is a lot better than a bunch of solid misses with a .44 mag!" Glock Armorer, NRA Chief RSO, Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun, Muzzleloading Rifle, Muzzleloading Shotgun, and Home Firearm Safety Training Counselor

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