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  1. #11
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    There are several different issues here:

    • A round-nose FMJ will pass straight through, keeping a lot of energy. Depending on the angle the round is traveling, it may end up hitting someone a few miles down the road with enough energy to injure or kill someone.
    • A flat-nose FMJ may tumble while passing through and even change direction. It may or may not keep a lot of energy. It may or may not travel a significant distance beyond its target and injure or kill someone.
    • A decent JHP will reliably expand and dump quickly most of its energy. Even if it penetrates fully, the small amount of remaining energy limits its lethality beyond the intended target severely.

    Deep penetrating JHP rounds are significantly less lethal beyond the intended target than FMJ rounds. How do we know this? People actually test stuff. From More on Overpenetration - What About FMJ's? | Shooting The Bull:

    Using a 230-grain projectile at 850 feet per second from the muzzle, itíd penetrate through that 9″ torso and when it overpenetrated itíd still be going 498 feet per second. That would give it enough energy to be able to penetrate over 16″ of ballistic gel, definitely capable of a fatal hit. But letís put it in perspective ó letís say that the .45 ACP FMJ penetrated through the 9″-thick attacker, and continued on to hit a bystander ó at 498 feet per second, itíd have enough energy to easily pass completely through 9″ of bystander, and still be going at 252 feet per second! After exiting the bystander, itíd still maintain enough energy to reach almost 8″ deep into ballistic gel ó again, far enough to cause serious damage, and depending on where it hits, it may even cause a critical/fatal hit on a person behind the bystander behind the attacker. Yes, one .45 ACP FMJ could pass completely through two people and lodge deeply enough in the third to cause a fatal hit.

    Is overpenetration a concern?

    Yes, but itís only a significant concern if youíre foolish enough to load your defensive weapon with FMJ bullets instead of hollowpoints. If hollowpoints are legal for self defense where you live, USE THEM. Theyíre much more effective wounders, theyíre much more likely to stop an attacker, and they vastly minimize any risk of overpenetration. A hollowpoint expands so large that it slows down dramatically while itís traveling through the attackerís body; even if it overpenetrates itíll be going so slowly that it wonít be nearly as dangerous as an FMJ would be. The only time Iíd recommend against hollowpoints is when youíre using a tiny caliber (specifically .22LR, .25 ACP, or .32 ACP) where there just isnít enough energy available to push a hollowpoint deep enough to cause a critical hit ó in those cases, you have to go with a non-expanding bullet; wadcutters would be preferred, but use FMJís if you canít get wadcutters.
    In any case, hitting the target would be the first priority. The reason why officers hit bystanders at all is because they miss the target: Police: All Empire State shooting victims were wounded by officers - CNN.com.

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  3. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by bofh View Post
    There are several different issues here:

    • A round-nose FMJ will pass straight through, keeping a lot of energy. Depending on the angle the round is traveling, it may end up hitting someone a few miles down the road with enough energy to injure or kill someone.
    • A flat-nose FMJ may tumble while passing through and even change direction. It may or may not keep a lot of energy. It may or may not travel a significant distance beyond its target and injure or kill someone.
    • A decent JHP will reliably expand and dump quickly most of its energy. Even if it penetrates fully, the small amount of remaining energy limits its lethality beyond the intended target severely.

    Deep penetrating JHP rounds are significantly less lethal beyond the intended target than FMJ rounds. How do we know this? People actually test stuff. From More on Overpenetration - What About FMJ's? | Shooting The Bull:



    In any case, hitting the target would be the first priority. The reason why officers hit bystanders at all is because they miss the target: Police: All Empire State shooting victims were wounded by officers - CNN.com.
    Did they actually test this? I read through their article but found no test...they just know the numbers...where did they get their numbers from?

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    ďOne of the illusions of life is that the present hour is not the critical, decisive one.Ē Ė Ralph Waldo Emerson

  4. Quote Originally Posted by Firefighterchen View Post
    Jhp are meant to expand in soft tissue.

    Sent from my HTCONE using USA Carry mobile app
    I'm sorry I meant to say the only thing you miss with fmj's is the expansion.

  5. Quote Originally Posted by bofh View Post
    There are several different issues here:

    • A round-nose FMJ will pass straight through, keeping a lot of energy. Depending on the angle the round is traveling, it may end up hitting someone a few miles down the road with enough energy to injure or kill someone.
    • A flat-nose FMJ may tumble while passing through and even change direction. It may or may not keep a lot of energy. It may or may not travel a significant distance beyond its target and injure or kill someone.
    • A decent JHP will reliably expand and dump quickly most of its energy. Even if it penetrates fully, the small amount of remaining energy limits its lethality beyond the intended target severely.

    Deep penetrating JHP rounds are significantly less lethal beyond the intended target than FMJ rounds. How do we know this? People actually test stuff. From More on Overpenetration - What About FMJ's? | Shooting The Bull:



    In any case, hitting the target would be the first priority. The reason why officers hit bystanders at all is because they miss the target: Police: All Empire State shooting victims were wounded by officers - CNN.com.


    Is this more pertaining to .45 caliber or all fmj's. Reason I ask because I believe military police still use hardball. I know we did when I was in.

  6. #15
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    Years ago it was explained to me via this forum that ball ammo, especially .45 will keep going through matter verses JHP that will fragment upon initial contact. I have since practiced with ball, but carry JHP. I'd sooner have minimum impact to secondary penetrations then drill through multiple secondary's.
    I will say that the background past the BG will determine whether I engage. If threat choice avails itself. It'll be that 10th of a second determination. JUST train real time.
    "The smallest minority on earth is the individual. Those who deny individual rights cannot claim to be defenders of minorities." --author and philosopher Ayn Rand (1905-1982)

  7. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firefighterchen View Post
    Did they actually test this? I read through their article but found no test...they just know the numbers...where did they get their numbers from?
    He did not test this. If you would care to read the linked article:

    Letís consult Charles Schwartzís excellent Quantitative Ammunition Selection to find out.
    Others, however did, test this:

    Brass Fetcher .45 ACP
    Wound Ballistics, Ballistic Injury, Stopping Power, Gunshot Wounds


  8. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Graylon View Post
    Is this more pertaining to .45 caliber or all fmj's. Reason I ask because I believe military police still use hardball. I know we did when I was in.
    Again, two different topics.

    FMJ penetration highly depends on caliber and bullet design. Lighter-weight, high-velocity or flat-nosed rounds do jaw/tumble. See the 9mm Makarov vs. 45 ACP comparison at Brass Fetcher.

    The military mostly uses hardball due to the Hague Convention, which limits ammunition options.

  9. Over penetration is a phrase and concept the FBI has admitted to inventing and using in their report as one of the reasons they needed to get rid of the 10mm. They didn't want to admit that the 10mm was too much for their agents ( CPA's and Lawyers) to handle. The factual records kept by the FBI on the other hand show that 70% of all shots fired in a shooting completely miss the target. Worry about trying to shoot and hit your target with the ammo of your choice. Over penetration is in the same category as flying saucers, everybody talks about it but nobody has ever seen it.


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  10. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by zeke4351 View Post
    Over penetration is a phrase and concept the FBI has admitted to inventing and using in their report as one of the reasons they needed to get rid of the 10mm. They didn't want to admit that the 10mm was too much for their agents ( CPA's and Lawyers) to handle. The factual records kept by the FBI on the other hand show that 70% of all shots fired in a shooting completely miss the target. Worry about trying to shoot and hit your target with the ammo of your choice. Over penetration is in the same category as flying saucers, everybody talks about it but nobody has ever seen it.
    Correct, but always keep in mind that this over penetration nonsense is in relation to JHP rounds. I love the 10mm. I carry the Glock 20 loaded with hardcast rounds while hiking, but also with extra mags loaded with JHP in case of a more serious situation with the 2-legged kind. Terminal ballistics and the intended target define ammunition selection.

  11. Do the following unscientific test on paper targets at the range:
    Shoot a 5-shot group with factory FMJ-RN
    Shoot a 5-shot group with factory FMJ-FN
    Shoot a 5-shot group with factory JHP.
    Which one leaves the smallest hole in the target?
    That RN can just slip through, doing much less damage than the FN or JHP, even without any expansion.
    I don't consider expansion all the important for .45, so I would consider a SWC to be a "good enough" choice--but not a RN.
    However, it is your decision.

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