question concern as to reload
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 15

Thread: question concern as to reload

  1. #1

    question concern as to reload

    in a discussion i had with friends on reloading this came up ... we reload the get the best ammo to work in a particular gun,now because there is a multitude of ammo out there for personal defense my question is would this be premeditated if you reloaded your own personal defense ammo??
    meaning if you reload ammo to use against the bg or bad guy would that not be like planing ahead. if ammo makers allready make ammo for personal defense .
    we had this discussion and had mixed reviews on this subject what are you thoughts on this ..

  2.   
  3. #2
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Wesley Chapel NC
    Posts
    270

    Big Debate

    There is a lot of discussion about this in the interwebs, and most seem to think your best bet is to carry what the local PD carry. Makes it tough for a prosecutor to go after your ammo.

    Personally I don't think you are going to end up in a "CSI Miami" type prosecution where they even recognize that your ammo is reloaded. Ever heard of a gangbanger getting charged with using "more lethal" ammo??
    We are lucky if they even get a slap on the wrist.

  4. #3
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Tampa Bay Area
    Posts
    1,854
    Welcome to the site Donc. Check out this thread.

    http://www.usacarry.com/forums/handg...ition-but.html
    "When Government fears the people, it's liberty. When people fear the Government, it's tyranny."
    - Benjamin Franklin

  5. #4
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Twin Falls, Idaho
    Posts
    292
    You make a valid point and most self defense experts agree that it could get you into trouble in court by an over zealous prosecute. The other and in my opinion the main point against hand loads for defense is dependability. No matter how careful you are it's too easy to foul powder or primers and not realize it until it's too late. There are just too many ways reloaded ammo can fail for me to want to trust my life to it. Premium ammo is all good. Doesn't matter what brand, it all will perform like it's supposed to. Pick the one you are comfortable with and it will be right. If you just can't decide, as was suggested, find out what the local LEO carries. You can't go wrong with this way of choosing.

    GOOD LUCK!!!

  6. #5

    I Do...

    Long Post, but worth it if you are considering reloading your own SD ammo but are a little jitterly about the whole thing.

    As Jes mentioned, this topic has been on pretty much every forum. It concerned me greatly because I wanted to practice with what I carried if at all possible. So I make it a habit of reading these threads. Shortly after I began reloading ammo, I decided that I was going to load my own SD rounds and would worry about being prosecuted if I were still alive. But, of course, I wanted someone to say that it was permissible to do so.

    The following, a response I saved with permission is the best argument I have ever seen, bar none. I rest well at night knowing my rights won't be trampled as so many on the threads predict:


    I have taught Concealed Carry in Utah for over a decade and I tell my students that, UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES should they carry reloads for home defense.

    And I think, though well-meaning, you taught them wrong.

    Maybe if they live on the west coast there is some slight chance of it causing an issue, but almost no place else. First, no trial law precedent exists on the topic. The fear seems to have originated in the imagination of Masaad Ayoob, who warned people not to use reloads for liability reasons. He claimed it had come up in trials where he had testified as an expert witness. But when challenged to provide a trial transcript, a case number, or ruling citation, Ayoob was unable to. After two or three years of being pestered about it, he finally found one case ruled to be homicide disguised as an accident where it might conceivably have been the case that a light target load fooled the forensics people about how close the gun was to the victim's head when it was fired. Pretty weak connection.

    An attorney friend of mine believes there are several reasons it will never become part of case law. First, there is no statutory law on the books anywhere in the country outlawing handloads for defensive shooting. So, you've broken no law by doing it. Second, you're not likely to find any elected prosecutor who wants to be seen by the voting public as persecuting people who defended themselves justifiably. Third, the prosecutors understand that self-defense is an unanticipated event, and they understand you will grab whatever is at hand to do the job. Whether you shot someone with a handload or smashed his head in with a toilet tank lid isn't the issue. The issue is whether the defensive violence was justifiable? Don't shoot anyone you aren't justified in shooting and you will likely be OK with the criminal justice system. Kill people unjustifiably, and you likely won't. An inadvertent false prosecution will happen whether you used handloads or not because it will be based on perceived justifiability and not weapon particulars.

    Then there are the civil courts. That's where the victim or his family might come after you for hurting the precious predator. Most states now have castle doctrine laws that specifically make it illegal for the criminal or his family to sue you for injury incurred by the criminal during the commission of a crime. Check your state laws to see if that applies where you are?

    But even if you don't have that protection, the principle also exits in law that a criminal not be allowed to profit from a crime. Every once in a while you hear of some notorious serial killer who wants to cut a deal for writing a book about his crimes. They can't understand when the courts won't let them keep the money if they do. That no-profit principle makes the cases unattractive to attorneys on contingency, which are usually the only ones the criminal can afford.

    So, it isn't illegal, no case law exists showing that it has ever caused a liability issue, and the chances are that neither the prosecutor nor a contingency lawyer will want to come after you if the shooting was justified.

    So what are the affirmative aspects of loading your own defensive ammo? The main issue is the reliability standpoint. I am of the opinion that with a good execution plan you can make hand loads more reliable than commercial ammo. That is for the simple reason that you can take the time to inspect every individual round at every step of the process. The ammo plant cannot. You can use tools to weigh and measure and select and sort everything you assemble. With good tools, at every step of the process you can be more precise than a factory.

    We've had a couple of contributors at the Shooter's Forum who've been involved in test firing ammunition for a living. One who had fired several hundred thousand rounds for a government contract said every kind of failure you've ever seen in hand loads he has seen in commercial ammo at one time or another. Squib loads, loads that were too hot, case failures, assembly issues, missing or backward primers, missing powder, high primers, crushed primers, and anything else you can dream up. There are also commercial ammo problems that no handloader ever has. I bought a thousand bulk Winchester .223 cases a few years ago. Sorting them to find the best ones for long range match loads, I found two with no flashholes. No need to explain how they would have "fired" if the factory had loaded them instead of selling them to me. At least that's one failure you can't have in a reloaded case.

    Missing flashholes notwithstanding, I would follow the recommendation to use new brass in defensive loads you will carry or for loads you are taking on an expensive hunting expedition where you can't afford to have it go wrong. You should buy a large enough lot of brass that you can fire 83 randomly selected rounds. That's the lot sample size the military uses for things that cannot be tested non-destructively. It is to minimize the probability there are faults in the rest of a batch. It is important the sample be truly random, though.

    Inspect the cases with a magnifying glass for flaws and irregularities. Use case measuring tools to get good uniform brass. Weigh your bullets, powder and primers to be sure the ones you will carry are all within one standard deviation of the average weight of them all. Use a benchrest primer seating tool to insure precise touchdown of the primers in the primer pockets without crushing. Measure that the primers are all about two to five thousandths below flush with the casehead after seating. You can also add sealant if you want to. Keep the stuff in special storage if you want to. Fire and replace it periodically.

    We reloaders can all get better accuracy from our loads than from factory loads. The reason's the same. We can afford to be more careful assembling each round.

    CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor
    NRA Certified Rifle Instructor
    NRA Patron Member
    I know a man by the name of Mel;
    he can't see but he sure do smell.

  7. #6
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Gray Court, SC
    Posts
    2,934
    Great post, benzuncle and I agree 100%. Self protection is just that. It doesn't matter if you shot someone with factory loads, reloads, or was swinging a sledge hammer. Bottom line is was it justified. Reloads are bar none more consistent, reliable and accurate than any factory load. Fine tuning a reload to a specific firearm just makes sense.
    USAF Retired, CATM, SC CWP, NH NR CWP, NRA Benefactor
    To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of people always possess arms, and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them... -- Richard Henry Lee, 1787

  8. #7
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Twin Falls, Idaho
    Posts
    292
    Quote Originally Posted by Red Hat View Post
    Great post, benzuncle and I agree 100%. Self protection is just that. It doesn't matter if you shot someone with factory loads, reloads, or was swinging a sledge hammer. Bottom line is was it justified. Reloads are bar none more consistent, reliable and accurate than any factory load. Fine tuning a reload to a specific firearm just makes sense.
    After reading Benzuncle's post I have to agree with him in theory however to follow this fellows prescription for Self defense loads would be overwhelming for the average reloader. A lot of time goes into assembling cartridges that would meet his specs when a box of Gold Dots, SXTs, Cor-Bon, Hydro-Shocks, etc. would provide all the necessary dependablity and stopping power needed for typical self defense requirments for the non-LEO CCW person. I always shot "Developed" reloads in my hunting rifles. Handgun loads are done on a progressive as I don't have time to precision load 200 rounds or 9mm or 45 a week to take to the range. Tack driving accuracy is not practical for self defense. Chances are the vast majority of us will go through life and never be faced with a situation requiring our gun and if we ever are, the target will most likely be at contact to 20 ' max. distance away. Most likely 10' or less. Any ammo will be sufficiently accurate at this typical range. I always tell people when asked, if in doubt, carry what the local LEOs carry and you can't go wrong.

  9. #8
    you all hit just about every aspect we had discussed ,i will look ,but i dont know if NY has the castle law .you all have great points, i do reload for rifle and two of my pistols for hunting my ccw i thought would be the same process but as stated the perp wont be 100 yards away other wise i would have not reason to shoot to defend myself i can get out of the area to saftey avoid bg and call for help. but in my home not running anywere i will ask local law officers what is carried and go from there. thanks for the valuable input on this ..

  10. #9
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Green Valley (Henderson) NV
    Posts
    853
    Quote Originally Posted by benzuncle View Post
    Maybe if they live on the west coast there is some slight chance of it causing an issue, but almost no place else. First, no trial law precedent exists on the topic. The fear seems to have originated in the imagination of Masaad Ayoob, who warned people not to use reloads for liability reasons. He claimed it had come up in trials where he had testified as an expert witness. But when challenged to provide a trial transcript, a case number, or ruling citation, Ayoob was unable to. After two or three years of being pestered about it, he finally found one case ruled to be homicide disguised as an accident where it might conceivably have been the case that a light target load fooled the forensics people about how close the gun was to the victim's head when it was fired. Pretty weak connection.
    If you look at the forensics you can see how that can happen in any incident involving a firearm. We also have the issue of Harold Fish which one of the merits of the case was that he used 10mm hollowpoints.
    An attorney friend of mine believes there are several reasons it will never become part of case law. First, there is no statutory law on the books anywhere in the country outlawing handloads for defensive shooting.
    Not yet. You probably won't see such a law in the right to carry shall issue States with some form of a castle doctrine or stand your ground law. However expect to see that happen in right to die States. I wouldn't carry handloaded ammunition if I managed to get a NJ CCW or was carrying there legally under LEOSA if I was eligible to do so.
    Second, you're not likely to find any elected prosecutor who wants to be seen by the voting public as persecuting people who defended themselves justifiably.
    Depends on the DA and the jurisdiction the incident occurred. If I was involved in a self defense in Henderson Nevada that would be much more well received by the general public than in say North Las Vegas.
    Third, the prosecutors understand that self-defense is an unanticipated event, and they understand you will grab whatever is at hand to do the job. Whether you shot someone with a handload or smashed his head in with a toilet tank lid isn't the issue. The issue is whether the defensive violence was justifiable?
    Ah, but the use of handloads is a premeditated act. You made the conscious decision to use handloads for whatever reason. Perhaps to squeeze a couple of hundred more FPS out of the round. The question of why you elected to use handloads and how they compare to factory ammunition will be a factor. You also have the argument why law enforcement agencies do not handload their own duty ammunition.
    Don't shoot anyone you aren't justified in shooting and you will likely be OK with the criminal justice system. Kill people unjustifiably, and you likely won't. An inadvertent false prosecution will happen whether you used handloads or not because it will be based on perceived justifiability and not weapon particulars.

    Then there are the civil courts. That's where the victim or his family might come after you for hurting the precious predator. Most states now have castle doctrine laws that specifically make it illegal for the criminal or his family to sue you for injury incurred by the criminal during the commission of a crime. Check your state laws to see if that applies where you are?
    Castle doctrine States are in the minority. Also keep in mind that castle doctrine as an absolute only applies to your home. Stand your ground statutes apply to any act of self defense.
    But even if you don't have that protection, the principle also exits in law that a criminal not be allowed to profit from a crime.
    It has happened quite a few times where a subject has sued for wrongful death or personal injury for simply slipping and falling while committing a crime. This is why many government buildings in Nevada have night time lighting. Several government agencies have been successfully sued for PI by criminals injuring themselves while committing a crime and won.
    So, it isn't illegal, no case law exists showing that it has ever caused a liability issue, and the chances are that neither the prosecutor nor a contingency lawyer will want to come after you if the shooting was justified.
    Tell that to Bernie Goetz who has a $43M judgment against him. He was only convicted of possession of a firearm without a NY permit. He had much support for his actions.

    The probability is less likely. However a member of the NC DOJ AG's office who teaches NC CHP instructors not to use reloaded ammunition. He's the expert who defends LEO related shootings. There is no civil suit immunity in any way, shape or form in NC since that's where John Edwards is from; the Johnnie Cochran of civil litigation.

    For every attorney and expert you find supporting your position, I can find others that support mine. I'd much rather defer to Ayoob's train of thought on this issue. I save my handloads for range use. You also have the issue that quite a few firearm training facilities will only allow factory ammunition for use on their facility. Why is that if handloaded ammunition is such a good thing?

    The bottom line is that judges and juries are unpredictable. If Bernie Goetz had so much support for his actions why did he lose in civil court?
    Know the law; don't ask, don't tell.
    NRA & UT Certified Instructor; CT, FL, NH, NV, OR, PA & UT CCW Holder
    Happy new 1984; 25 years behind schedule. Send lawyers, guns and money...the SHTF...

  11. #10
    Alright, I give up. You've convinced me to sell my firearms, my house and my car. I don't want to be sued by someone falling in my yard or getting hit while I'm driving my car!
    LOL! Just kidding. Valid points concerning Bernard Goetz. But I don't give a rat's butt. I'm still reloading my own and because this is America, you can do as you choose also. Your adivice is duly noted.
    I know a man by the name of Mel;
    he can't see but he sure do smell.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Quantcast