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Thread: First Handgun if you cannot acquire a .22

  1. #21
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    As a NYer, I know what your feeling. The different laws for NYC and NYS are complete ********. Get your permit and try and think about what your going to hold in your hand later. It will drive you nuts. Sig and Glock will work just fine. Sig does have a better choice (P229) in my ownership opinion of having both because of less recoil. The 22 caliber kit for my Sig sucks ass thou. With some ammo, it will hardly move the slide. I was disappointed in wasting money on it. To dumb down the recoil on my G19, I changed the guide rod and a dual action spring, plus changed the trigger. By the time I was done, I spent Sig money. For me it was unnatural feeling after doing well with the Sig. The Sig isn't polymer like the Glock so it absorbs more.
    Both are fine choices overall.

  2.   
  3. Quote Originally Posted by ImpeachObama View Post
    As a NYer, I know what your feeling. The different laws for NYC and NYS are complete ********. Get your permit and try and think about what your going to hold in your hand later. It will drive you nuts. Sig and Glock will work just fine. Sig does have a better choice (P229) in my ownership opinion of having both because of less recoil. The 22 caliber kit for my Sig sucks ass thou. With some ammo, it will hardly move the slide. I was disappointed in wasting money on it. To dumb down the recoil on my G19, I changed the guide rod and a dual action spring, plus changed the trigger. By the time I was done, I spent Sig money. For me it was unnatural feeling after doing well with the Sig. The Sig isn't polymer like the Glock so it absorbs more.
    Both are fine choices overall.
    So a few more questions since its gonna be at least 2 more year before I can get a car (Alright, so I was too lazy to learn to drive in H.S) as a prerequisite to "safely" transporting a pistol to the range.

    1) (For NYCers) How is the interview at One Police Plaza like? Any trick questions etc.

    2) I was ticketed three years ago (at age 16) by a transit cop for walking in between cars (which I immediately paid of the fine) and on the application, it says I must list all non traffic summons, is this one of them and how do you think this will affect by chances.

    3) Would it be a better idea for me to take handgun classes prior to getting the permit (like going to a range upstate or on LI (outside city limits) and learn to shoot there before getting my permit. Or should I wait till I am able to decide on a pistol when I get my permit, and learn with that pistol (instead of rentals or whatever they using in the classes)?

    Thanks Again

  4. #23
    If your only going to have one handgun, and its going to be for home/self defence, I would not bother with a 9mm, get a 40 or 45 we prefer glocks, but a Sig, S&W, Springfield, Colt, a 22 should never be considered as a self defence or home defence weapon, a 9mm is a popular caliber, but the 40 or 45 will stop a BG much faster with not as many hits needed, the bigger the caliber the netter stopping power, and unless you aim is better that perfect, which is doubtfull in a high stress situation, a 9mm is questionable and a 22 will just make a big BG mad

  5. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rocketgeezer View Post
    If your only going to have one handgun, and its going to be for home/self defence, I would not bother with a 9mm, get a 40 or 45 we prefer glocks, but a Sig, S&W, Springfield, Colt, a 22 should never be considered as a self defence or home defence weapon, a 9mm is a popular caliber, but the 40 or 45 will stop a BG much faster with not as many hits needed, the bigger the caliber the netter stopping power, and unless you aim is better that perfect, which is doubtfull in a high stress situation, a 9mm is questionable and a 22 will just make a big BG mad

    This is really poor advice for a new shooter.

    There is nothing wrong with a 9mm. .40, .45s, .357s, etc do not have "knockdown power", or "stopping power" any more than a 9mm.

    All handguns are puny pop guns compared to rifle and shotguns, best to not count on your "manstopper" caliber to work, because it is common for all of them to fail to stop the bad guy and you need to be mentally ready for that fact.

    9mm ammo is cheaper than .40 or .45, and gives significantly less recoil. This is a real issue when learning to shoot, and remains an issue for shooters who are honest with themselves.

    I am involved with police firearms training for a mid sized agency, and I have friends who are involved in training for agencies from small to state wide. Across the board we find teaching folks to run, really run, a .40 to be an issue due to the extra snap of the recoil. I know experienced shooters who, when given the chance, switched from the .40 to the .45 to get LESS recoil and a more controllable gun.

    Anyone can run almost any pistol given enough practice, training and ammo as long as they have two hands on the gun and they are shooting at targets on a well lit square range.
    Real life throws in curve balls, like having to shoot one handed, from other than standing, etc.

    If you can't shoot your hand gun (either pistol or revolver) one handed, while moving, with good accuracy, then you are kidding yourself that you are ready.

  6. #25
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    BTW, again;

    Glock 19 or 17

    This is a proven system that is durable, reliable and very shootable system that you can learn to detail strip and maintain on your own. Needs no special gunsmithing if you have a need to change out any parts.

    Glock 19 is what NYPD carries for the most part, for those that subscribe to the train of though to ; "carry what the cops carry", which isn't bad advice.

    Guys like Larry Vickers carry and recommend the Glock 9mms for a reason.

    I'd say G19 most of the time, but you will likely never get a CCW permit where you are living, so the 17 wouldn't be a disadvantage as a house gun.

    Advantage Arms .22 kit;

    Very good training system, works really well with the recommended ammo. Mine has several thousand rounds through it with no issues except needing to clean it at times.

    Its nice being able to get 550 rounds downrange and have only spent less than $20.
    The .22 kit gives you really good feedback on how well your trigger control is working, this is the toughest pistol skill to master, and the first you lose when you don't practice.

    You could go with a Glock 22 or 23, buy a 9mm conversion barrel for cheaper centerfire training (these actually work rather well when 9mm mags are used), and the AA .22kit, then you have a pistol that shoots three different calibers (or four of you buy a .357Sig barrel).

  7. #26
    handgonnetoter Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Sirf_palot View Post
    So basically, I'm looking towards the future when I can legally acquire for a pistol (premises) permit in NYC (and rifle permit hopefully, want to get a milsurp rifle). But in this case, I only want some advice on pistols. I've read on many sites that amateurs should buy a .22 cal pistol first as to learn proper handling techniques as they say that if I go straight to centerfire pistols, I'll develop bad habits. But being from NYC, I can't waste that valuable permit for a .22 pistol. So what could I do to mitigate these problems? Any advice?


    Edit (1/30/11): So a few more questions since its gonna be at least 2 more year before I can get a car (Alright, so I was too lazy to learn to drive in H.S) as a prerequisite to "safely" transporting a pistol to the range.

    1) (For NYCers) How is the interview at One Police Plaza like? Any trick questions etc.

    2) I was ticketed three years ago (at age 16) by a transit cop for walking in between cars (which I immediately paid of the fine) and on the application, it says I must list all non traffic summons, is this one of them and how do you think this will affect by chances.

    3) Would it be a better idea for me to take handgun classes prior to getting the permit (like going to a range upstate or on LI (outside city limits) and learn to shoot there before getting my permit. Or should I wait till I am able to decide on a pistol when I get my permit, and learn with that pistol (instead of rentals or whatever they using in the classes)?

    Thanks Again
    Man, they say New Yorkers are proud to be that, but the way you get treated would make be swallow my pride and move! Thats nuts all the hoops you have to jump thru just to do anything there.

  8. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by tpd223 View Post
    This is really poor advice for a new shooter.

    There is nothing wrong with a 9mm. .40, .45s, .357s, etc do not have "knockdown power", or "stopping power" any more than a 9mm.

    All handguns are puny pop guns compared to rifle and shotguns, best to not count on your "manstopper" caliber to work, because it is common for all of them to fail to stop the bad guy and you need to be mentally ready for that fact.

    9mm ammo is cheaper than .40 or .45, and gives significantly less recoil. This is a real issue when learning to shoot, and remains an issue for shooters who are honest with themselves.

    I am involved with police firearms training for a mid sized agency, and I have friends who are involved in training for agencies from small to state wide. Across the board we find teaching folks to run, really run, a .40 to be an issue due to the extra snap of the recoil. I know experienced shooters who, when given the chance, switched from the .40 to the .45 to get LESS recoil and a more controllable gun.

    Anyone can run almost any pistol given enough practice, training and ammo as long as they have two hands on the gun and they are shooting at targets on a well lit square range.
    Real life throws in curve balls, like having to shoot one handed, from other than standing, etc.

    If you can't shoot your hand gun (either pistol or revolver) one handed, while moving, with good accuracy, then you are kidding yourself that you are ready.
    OK so you are saying that a 40s, 45s, 357s, have no more stopping power, (and I said stopping not knockdown) power than a 9mm, is this correct ? and you also said you had something to do with training police/security officers ? is this also correct ? if so I can understand why a lot of LEOs are the way they are, meaning not knowing things they should, you did notice the poster said he was able to have only one handgun, and I would also think myself and several thousand other people would rather have a 45 in my hand, rather than a 9mm, if confronted in my home in the middle of the night

  9. #28
    This thread has deteriorated into everyone recommending his/her own favorite handgun based upon their own individual experiences. I believe that the O.P. probably had the best idea when he asked if he should take classes outside NYC, get a little hands-on experience with a few different models and calibers to see what works for him, then get his NYC permit and choose his gun based on that experience.

    Up until last year I taught CCW classes in Missouri. Frankly, I gave it up because in my county of 39,000 people I know at least 12 other instructors, several of whom are better than me. But while I was teaching I saw more than a few students, new to shooting, who'd gone out and purchased a handgun prior to the course only to discover that they'd made a poor choice.

    One lady, in particular, comes to mind. This 4'11" 95lb woman had purchased a Ruger P90 .45ACP pistol based upon some gun dealer's recommendation. She could barely get her hands around that large grip and couldn't control it The combination of large caliber and large grips was simply too much for her. I loaned her my 1911 with a Ciener .22LR conversion on it for the remainder of the class and she did quite well with it. After class I suggested that she return to the dealer and see about trading that P90 for an SR9, a Sigma, a Glock, or something else in a size and caliber more suitable for her.

    I've also seen quite a few people who bought lightweight .40S&W pistols and found that they did NOT like the recoil; most memorable was a young lady who'd purchased a Taurus Mil-Pro Titanium in .40S&W and found it to be both painful and difficult to hang on to.

    In short, that NYC permit is going to take ages to get anyway. Before making that investment in time and money find one of the many good trainers outside of New York, one who will be able to provide a selection of handguns for you to try, and take their course. Then you can make an informed decision based upon what works for YOU rather than what works for the plethora of more experienced (and more free) shooters here.

    Better yet, make plans to move out of the land of Bloomberg to someplace where they still pretend to honor the Constitution. Here in Missouri, anywhere in Missouri, if I were to decide I wanted another pistol this morning all I'd have to do is visit my favorite pawn/gun shop (pretty much the same thing in this area,) pick out the gun, fill out the federal 4473 form, pay my money, and walk out with my new pistol. In this 900 sq. mi. county of 39,000 people I have 12 FFL dealers from which to choose. Or, I could find a private individual with the handgun I want, pay her the money she asked, shake hands, and simply take my new gun home. Or strap it on and begin carrying it, openly if I don't have a CCW, or anyway I want to carry it since I do have a CCW.

    Oh yeah, out of those 39,000 men, women, and children as of 12/31/10 there were 999 citizens 23 years of age or older with concealed carry permits. Our permits are "shall issue" meaning that if the sheriff cannot find a demonstrable reason for not issuing the permit, why, you get the permit. How many CCW permits does NYC have? You really need to move somewhere else.
    Last edited by brolin1911a1; 02-01-2011 at 11:14 AM. Reason: correct typo

  10. Quote Originally Posted by brolin1911a1 View Post
    This thread has deteriorated into everyone recommending his/her own favorite handgun based upon their own individual experiences. I believe that the O.P. probably had the best idea when he asked if he should take classes outside NYC, get a little hands-on experience with a few different models and calibers to see what works for him, then get his NYC permit and choose his gun based on that experience.

    Up until last year I taught CCW classes in Missouri. Frankly, I gave it up because in my county of 39,000 people I know at least 12 other instructors, several of whom are better than me. But while I was teaching I saw more than a few students, new to shooting, who'd gone out and purchased a handgun prior to the course only to discover that they'd made a poor choice.

    One lady, in particular, comes to mind. This 4'11" 95lb woman had purchased a Ruger P90 .45ACP pistol based upon some gun dealer's recommendation. She could barely get her hands around that large grip and couldn't control it The combination of large caliber and large grips was simply too much for her. I loaned her my 1911 with a Ciener .22LR conversion on it for the remainder of the class and she did quite well with it. After class I suggested that she return to the dealer and see about trading that P90 for an SR9, a Sigma, a Glock, or something else in a size and caliber more suitable for her.

    I've also seen quite a few people who bought lightweight .40S&W pistols and found that they did NOT like the recoil; most memorable was a young lady who'd purchased a Taurus Mil-Pro Titanium in .40S&W and found it to be both painful and difficult to hang on to.

    In short, that NYC permit is going to take ages to get anyway. Before making that investment in time and money find one of the many good trainers outside of New York, one who will be able to provide a selection of handguns for you to try, and take their course. Then you can make an informed decision based upon what works for YOU rather than what works for the plethora of more experienced (and more free) shooters here.

    Better yet, make plans to move out of the land of Bloomberg to someplace where they still pretend to honor the Constitution. Here in Missouri, anywhere in Missouri, if I were to decide I wanted another pistol this morning all I'd have to do is visit my favorite pawn/gun shop (pretty much the same thing in this area,) pick out the gun, fill out the federal 4473 form, pay my money, and walk out with my new pistol. In this 900 sq. mi. county of 39,000 people I have 12 FFL dealers from which to choose. Or, I could find a private individual with the handgun I want, pay her the money she asked, shake hands, and simply take my new gun home. Or strap it on and begin carrying it, openly if I don't have a CCW, or anyway I want to carry it since I do have a CCW.

    Oh yeah, out of those 39,000 men, women, and children as of 12/31/10 there were 999 citizens 23 years of age or older with concealed carry permits. Our permits are "shall issue" meaning that if the sheriff cannot find a demonstrable reason for not issuing the permit, why, you get the permit. How many CCW permits does NYC have? You really need to move somewhere else.
    Thanks. Since I am quite indecisive of a person, I needed this acknowledgement means that my plan is not bad (lol I kid). But the problem is finding a state (any ideas?) that allows me to handle a firearm without a permit (or residency). Because in NYC & NYS, I think to even touch pistols you need a pistol permit. And yes when I graduate college, I would try to move to a different state.

  11. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rocketgeezer View Post
    OK so you are saying that a 40s, 45s, 357s, have no more stopping power, (and I said stopping not knockdown) power than a 9mm, is this correct ? and you also said you had something to do with training police/security officers ? is this also correct ? if so I can understand why a lot of LEOs are the way they are, meaning not knowing things they should, you did notice the poster said he was able to have only one handgun, and I would also think myself and several thousand other people would rather have a 45 in my hand, rather than a 9mm, if confronted in my home in the middle of the night
    I did notice he could have only one pistol, and very much noticed that he is a new shooter with very little experience, hence my advice to avoid a large caliber handgun until he had more experience.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocketgeezer View Post
    OK so you are saying that a 40s, 45s, 357s, have no more stopping power
    I am saying precisely that. No service caliber handgun has "stopping power". Handgun bullets crush tissue and poke holes in bad guys (when used by the good guys of course), nothing more. Our job is to put those holes in the places that do the most good.

    I have been a police officer for 24 years, a firearms instructor for 23, 18 years in SWAT, and an instructor in several disciplines such as defensive tactics, low-light instructor, and SWAT tactics.

    I am not sure what your LEO comment refers to. Facts are facts, and although I am a perpetual student, I know what I need to know on this subject. You are reacting to an emotional attachment to your choice of calibers. Having a .45 may make you feel better (I certainly used to have the same ideas), but it does not mean you are actually better armed.

    I have several friends who are trauma surgeons, and a couple of coroners as well. All of them tell me the same thing; if they are looking at a wound caused by a service caliber pistol (.38, 9mm, .40, .45, .357mag, 10mm, etc.) in a body (be that body alive or dead) they have to find the bullet to know which one caused the wound. Why? Because all service caliber handgun bullets leave the same hole. Its too close to call.

    One of these Docs would be James Williams, of note due to being a trauma doc, a shooter, and well known for his Tactical Anatomy classes.

    My time on the street, personal observation of various gunshot wounds, both in first aid of victims and attendance at autopsies (our local coroner is a regional office and humors me my research since he is also a shooter himself) and involvement in several deadly force events, and dozens of officer involved shooting investigations, all leads me to the same conclusion as the good Docs; Too close to call.

    Thinking that bullets which are within hundredths of an inch in size, and within fractions of an inch of penetration, make a significant difference in "stopping power" is unsupported by facts.

    To steal a few quotes from Doc Roberts, who is currently one of the world's leading experts on wound ballistics;
    "Unless your department picks your caliber for you, pick the platform you shoot best, then decide on caliber from there. Basically all the standard service calibers work when using good quality ammunition..."
    and;
    "For CCW and most urban LE duty, there are a lot of advantages in carrying a 9mm--easy to shoot one handed, relatively inexpensive to practice with, lots of bullets. When I injured my strong hand a few years ago and lost its use for several months, I found out how much more effective I was using a G19 weak handed compared to a 1911..."

    But most importantly;
    "-- Cultivate a warrior mindset
    -- Invest in competent, thorough initial training and then maintain skills with regular ongoing practice
    -- Acquire a reliable and durable weapon system
    -- Purchase a consistent, robust performing duty/self-defense load in sufficient quantities (at least 1000 rounds) then STOP worrying about the nuances of handgun ammunition terminal performance."



    All handgun calibers fail, the 9mm just has a bad rap due to a few old reports of high volume fails-to-stop events, yet all of the service caliber pistols have had these fail-to-stop events.


    Just one example;
    Google up the Pete Solis shooting to find where a bad guy had to be hit 23 (I say again 23!) times, with .40 165gr Ranger-T launched from a Glock 22, and this was after Pete was shot multiple times himself.

    How can this be? Again, because all pistols are puny pop guns. Best to train for this reality.

    The very most important factor in "stopping power" is what gets hit, not what does the hitting. To quote Stephen Camp from his most excellent site "Placement is power".



    BTW, the OP likely has the best idea; Get some training from a REPUTABLE instructor, get to a range that rents guns, try for himself.

    As a conclusion, listen to Navy SEAL Sr. Chief Mike Day on how he was shot 27 times with 5.56 and 7.62 rounds but still managed to return fire with his 9mm Sig after his M4 was shot from his hands, put down all four bad guys, and live to tell the tale;

    Camp Patriot war veterans take on Mount Rainier | Phoenix News | Arizona News | azfamily.com | Featured Videos

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