Thoughts/rant - Page 2
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Thread: Thoughts/rant

  1. #11
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    60
    I saw that video.. PM me for a link. (I refuse to post it in public. Be warned it is real and shocking.)

    I want to agree with the be a good witness attitude but man after seeing this video, if it is the same one and this one takes place in another country. I really do not think I could just stand there and be a good witness, at the same point the people trying to help are not doing a good job. This is one of those moments we all dread. I honestly can not even guess what I would do at THAT moment.

  2.   
  3. I think the original poster's attitudue is why this county is going to pot. Part of my being a good father is trying to provide an example of decent human behavior to my child.

    I've never been in an armed encounter(well not firearms), but have intervened in violent situations when I didn't know if there were armed people.

    More applicable and certainly more likely is my intervening in a medical emergency(I'm a trauma surgeon) outside of my hospital. If I were to take biker's attitude I would quietly slink away. My malpractice insurance certainly isn't going to cover it, and the good samaritan law isn't all that protective. So all I have to gain is the possible loss of my career and subsequent inability to provide for my family. Boo hoo.
    OTOH, if I walk away I can prove to my daughter that everything I want to teach her is BS and the only important rule is "look out for number one."

    Doesn't seem like a difficult dillemna to me.

  4. #13

    Unhappy what would you do

    Quote Originally Posted by sar View Post
    I think the original poster's attitudue is why this county is going to pot. Part of my being a good father is trying to provide an example of decent human behavior to my child.

    I've never been in an armed encounter(well not firearms), but have intervened in violent situations when I didn't know if there were armed people.

    More applicable and certainly more likely is my intervening in a medical emergency(I'm a trauma surgeon) outside of my hospital. If I were to take biker's attitude I would quietly slink away. My malpractice insurance certainly isn't going to cover it, and the good samaritan law isn't all that protective. So all I have to gain is the possible loss of my career and subsequent inability to provide for my family. Boo hoo.
    OTOH, if I walk away I can prove to my daughter that everything I want to teach her is BS and the only important rule is "look out for number one."

    Doesn't seem like a difficult dillemna to me.
    I was raised to help my fellow man and tought that one reeps what he sow's. I am a paramedic firefighter so helping people in need is certainly up my alley. given the situation that was described i dont think i could just watch, it goes against all my moral upbringing. Thats woman could be some little childs mother or grandmother and she's not going to be there for them anymore cause someone who had a means to end the situation just stood and watched for fear of financial losses! dont think i could live with myself if i just played witness. nor could i look that womans children in the eye as i testified against the assailant. I believe in that situation if i had a means to end it knowing she was going to die if i didnt i would have remove one worthless thug from the gene pool!!! When the police and medic arrive you can bet they will just cover him with a sheet, no other side of the story to be told...

    now for scenario # 2 bank or store robery without any serious inclination that the perp is planning to do bodily harm, he can have all the money he wants i will play witness until it becomes life threatening.

  5. Edmund Burke and I agree.

  6. OK guys, take a moment and think about this.

    Those of you that would intervene with a firearm:

    Where are you going to shoot from? What is your backstop? If you shoot from where the camera was shooting you stamd a good chance of hitting a passing car. Also, beyond the bagduy, what is your backstop? The cars? Did one of those parked cars have a person in it? Want to bet everything on it that they didn't? Also, did anyone notice the building behind the cars? That building has a lot of windows, and we all know how well windows stop bullets.

    I will intervene, but only to the degree and level that I want to. Some of you say the guys that did intervene didn't do enough, but in reality they did a whole lot at great risk to themselves. Like I said before, I'm only using a firearm ON DUTY or to protect me and mine. Even "good shoots" can be devastating.

    Have I gotten involved in stuff off duty? Yes, but I will ensure my safety first and decide what action I will take before "jumping in". I've only seen the video once, but I have seen others. Guess what guys, this is "normal" for this type of situation and this is pretty much how it goes down. I use the term FORCED TO SHOOT because in my mind that's what it should be. No other option should be available to you and you are "forced" to shoot the aggressor.

    Does this mean that I think you should let the badguy have a few free whacks at you first? No, not at all. I do think that deadly force is the "last resort" and sometimes there is no other option. Be ready though to "pay the price".

    I hate to say it, but unless you are an identified LEO or a loved one, I am not using deadly force to save you. Everybody is responsible for their own safety. I do not expect help nor look for it. I would suggest that you all do the same.

    Biker

  7. #16

    Everyone is different

    so everyone will see each situation differently. Also, hindsight is always perfectly focused. IF the guy in Tyler had realized the shooter was wearing bodyarmor he would have taken headshots. IF the guy in Tacoma had known he wasn't going to be able to pull the trigger on a teenager he would not have pulled his gun, he would have run for cover.

    Most of us said secure and assess, then take action. If the situation isn't safe for engagement, then don't engage. If it looks okay, then do what you can. Not everything works out the way it should. Good guys get shot/killed, victims don't make it to the hospital on time and, yes, God forbid, a stray bullet sometimes finds soft flesh. All you can do is all you can do.

    I think the problem is that many are reading your statement as saying you are only going to intervene or get involved when it is convenient for you. Hopefully, it is never going to be "convenient" to shoot someone. If my family is being attacked and I am cutting the grass back home or on a business trip, I am disappointed that anyone with the means to help would deny them assistance. But, if the risk is too great for you, then so be it, I can only hope that someone else is nearby if my family is ever assaulted under those circumstances.
    Last edited by ecocks; 02-01-2008 at 09:50 AM.
    Reality, DEAL with IT!

  8. #17
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    West of the Rocky Mountains
    Posts
    7
    ''''I hate to say it, but unless you are an identified LEO or a loved one, I am not using deadly force to save you. Everybody is responsible for their own safety. I do not expect help nor look for it. I would suggest that you all do the same.''''

    Biker


    I have a hard time believing that you would be ok with a fellow armed LEO just watching as your wife and kids were being murdered with a cutting tool because he was "off duty" at the time. Please spare me the "That could never happen, my wife packs all the time BS", .........................................anything can happen anytime.
    To sit back hoping that someday, someway, someone will make things right is to go on feeding the crocodile, hoping he will eat you last--but eat you he will.
    Ronald Reagan

  9. #18

    would you intervene

    I havnet seen the video so i cant comment on what approach i would have or what angle i would attempt to fire from should it come to that. But as i said before its in my Blood to help people in life threatning situations. I am a second generation firefighter/paramedic. we run into burning buildings while everybody else is running out the front door, without thought of weather i may recieve bodily harm. We do this for perfect strangers!!! worrying about if someone is going to sue me will never cross my mind. there are many people still walking around today because i went into a hostile environment not knowing because the whole situation was'nt given to the dispatchers. On the subject of over penetration or whats is potentially in the background, yes we are accountable for who else or what else that bullet harms. My pistol is loaded with the first 2 rnd are frangible to cut down that risk. even with that it still leaves a great risk to take. these situations wont happen in front of a birm!

    If that was my wife and someone who had the means to end it just stood by and watched the horror, you could not imagine what i would think of that person or maybe even want to do to him for letting the mother of my children be taken from this world by some worthless pschopath debt to society. Especially when he is off duty law enforcement. I do not believe that anyone could just stand and watch and live with themselves afterward.:(

  10. #19

    Angry ive seen the video

    ok now that ive seen the video. I would have to say that coming to the aid of this lady with use of a firearm would be perfectly justified. no jury is going to convict someone of murder or manslaughter for putting this situation to an end. he is not paying any attention to what is going on around him. he is dead set on just plain killing her so approaching and getting a up close sure shot driving it towards the concrete would stop him and hopefully after the bullet went through bone then brain matter and out the bone on the back side it will stike the sidewalk and have disentigrated or lost its energy. with any shot in public is risk but if you dont take the shot she definatly dies. Its absolutely appauling that someone would just stand and watch.


    On a second note ive heard many of my deputy and police officer friends state that they are sworn officers of the peace wether they are on the clock or not they have taken an oath to protect life and property. Not just the lives of their family and friends when they are off duty!

  11. Two different issues it seems:
    1)Worry about intervening without making matters worse by shooting someone innocent, etc. I see this as very valid
    2) Worry that your actions may land you in jail or have other negative consequences that you're not willing to undergo.

    Having seen the video, I can't imagine doing nothing.

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