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Thread: Should lasers belong on your edc gun

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by corneileous View Post
    Just like a Garmin GPS, especially in a commercial motor vehicle, it's just a tool, not to be primarily depended on.
    It's a little bit more complicated than that. You are not making split-second decisions using a Garmin GPS. At least I hope you don't.

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  3. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bikenut View Post
    A laser is just another tool in the toolbox and can be useful if your eyes are at one level and your gun is at a different level. Not all situations allow for lining your eye(s) up with the gun's sight(s).
    Quote Originally Posted by bofh View Post
    Lasers Allow You To Shoot From A Variety of Positions: Absolutely. Lasers allow you to shoot from positions where it is difficult to line up the sights. Most people that have a laser on their handgun never trained or practiced shooting from such positions (and likely never will).
    There are those that put lasers on their handgun and then use it as a sighting system for point shooting. That works well on a square range with a stationary target, but poorly in an actual deadly force situation.

  4. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by bofh View Post
    It's a little bit more complicated than that. You are not making split-second decisions using a Garmin GPS. At least I hope you don't.
    Only because your complicating it. Don't read so much into it. My point was just simply an addition to what Bikenut said.

  5. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by corneileous View Post
    Only because your complicating it. Don't read so much into it. My point was just simply an addition to what Bikenut said.
    Read my reply to Bikenut. The more bells and whistles you have on your gun, the more you need to train and practice to be able to use it properly. Most people simply don't do that. They focus on training with the laser on a square range with a stationary target and neglect training with the sights only in more complicated dynamic scenarios.

    There is also the paradox of choice. The more options you have, the more difficult it is to decide which option to chose. There is a reason for the KISS principle and why I posted this:

    Quote Originally Posted by bofh View Post
    Lasers Allow You To Remain Target-Focused: The biggest problem with lasers is that they make you focus on the target. If you draw your weapon, what are you going to focus on first? The front sight for lining up the sights or the target for finding the laser dot? Are you even going to move the gun to a position for a sight picture or are you simply just point shooting using the laser as an aid (which is a training scar)?
    Note that Rob Pincus does teach point shooting and does teach it using a laser. I don't agree with that philosophy and the guide rod laser he is using in the video below is crap. In the video, he does show all the negative aspects of a laser as well.


  6. #15
    Bikenut Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by bofh View Post
    There are those that put lasers on their handgun and then use it as a sighting system for point shooting. That works well on a square range with a stationary target, but poorly in an actual deadly force situation.
    There are also some guns (Ruger LCP for instance) that have minimal sights that are difficult to see much less use during an actual deadly force situation. A laser can be a useful tool in such cases.

    As I, and corneileous, said.... a laser is just a tool. Neither of us said it was the end all/be all super duper always the best option tool.

    Oh... if a person trains only one way, such as always looking for the front sight, then that person will always respond in only one way whether the situation requires a different response or not. One of what I consider to be a "fail" of modern training is the assumption the defender will always have enough room/time to bring the gun up to eye level.

  7. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bikenut View Post
    There are also some guns (Ruger LCP for instance) that have minimal sights that are difficult to see much less use during an actual deadly force situation. A laser can be a useful tool in such cases.
    I agree that some guns are simply not the right tool for the job and putting a laser on it can fix that temporarily, until the laser fails.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bikenut View Post
    As I, and corneileous, said.... a laser is just a tool. Neither of us said it was the end all/be all super duper always the best option tool.
    I agree that it is just a tool. It is not about the end all/be all thing. It is about yet another doohickey on your gun that you have to train with. There is little gain for a lot of pain. One has to think about priorities here. If you are a professional that has all the time in the world to train, go ahead. Note that many professionals do not have (visible) lasers on their weapons though for a reason.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bikenut View Post
    Oh... if a person trains only one way, such as always looking for the front sight, then that person will always respond in only one way whether the situation requires a different response or not. One of what I consider to be a "fail" of modern training is the assumption the defender will always have enough room/time to bring the gun up to eye level.
    That's outright nonsense. Have you ever attended a single defensive handgun class in the past 10-15 years? Point shooting from the retention position is pretty much taught on day one or day two. We even had recently a guy on this forum that made fun of a technique I posted, because his training was decades ago and he didn't knew any better. Here is my post from a class about point shooting that triggered that stupid discussion.

  8. #17
    Bikenut Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by bofh View Post
    Originally Posted by Bikenut View Post
    There are also some guns (Ruger LCP for instance) that have minimal sights that are difficult to see much less use during an actual deadly force situation. A laser can be a useful tool in such cases.
    I agree that some guns are simply not the right tool for the job and putting a laser on it can fix that temporarily, until the laser fails.
    I understand you don't like lasers. I don't much care for them myself but I do understand a laser can have a positive role in some circumstances.

    While there are guns that might be more effective than a small gun like a Ruger LCP circumstances can result in that small gun being the only one available at the moment it is needed. Gun size snobbery doesn't reflect what the real world offers as situation circumstances.

    And saying that the laser might be useful until it fails is a very weak argument since a gun of any kind can be the right tool for the job...... until the gun fails.

    Quote Originally Posted by bofh View Post
    Originally Posted by Bikenut View Post
    As I, and corneileous, said.... a laser is just a tool. Neither of us said it was the end all/be all super duper always the best option tool.
    I agree that it is just a tool. It is not about the end all/be all thing. It is about yet another doohickey on your gun that you have to train with. There is little gain for a lot of pain. One has to think about priorities here. If you are a professional that has all the time in the world to train, go ahead. Note that many professionals do not have (visible) lasers on their weapons though for a reason.
    Again, it is plain you don't much like lasers yet not everyone is a professional and for a nonprofessional who doesn't have time/money/resources to train like a professional a laser might be the edge that works for them. Again, a laser is just a tool. A tool that might help, might not help, might not even make a difference but if it does make a difference that difference could be what saves the day.

    Quote Originally Posted by bofh View Post
    Originally Posted by Bikenut View Post
    Oh... if a person trains only one way, such as always looking for the front sight, then that person will always respond in only one way whether the situation requires a different response or not. One of what I consider to be a "fail" of modern training is the assumption the defender will always have enough room/time to bring the gun up to eye level.
    That's outright nonsense. Have you ever attended a single defensive handgun class in the past 10-15 years? Point shooting from the retention position is pretty much taught on day one or day two. We even had recently a guy on this forum that made fun of a technique I posted, because his training was decades ago and he didn't knew any better. Here is my post from a class about point shooting that triggered that stupid discussion.
    In a stressful save your arse situation folks revert to the level of their training... or lack of training. And a laser can be helpful during point shooting. Not to mention that a laser could be useful for those who cannot avail themselves of a defensive training class.

    *Would you say that a laser can, or can't, be helpful when firing from retention?

    I ran a defensive training course of fire for 2 years so I am not impressed with your attitude.

    *Edited

  9. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bikenut View Post
    I understand you don't like lasers. I don't much care for them myself but I do understand a laser can have a positive role in some circumstances.

    While there are guns that might be more effective than a small gun like a Ruger LCP circumstances can result in that small gun being the only one available at the moment it is needed. Gun size snobbery doesn't reflect what the real world offers as situation circumstances.

    And saying that the laser might be useful until it fails is a very weak argument since a gun of any kind can be the right tool for the job...... until the gun fails.



    Again, it is plain you don't much like lasers yet not everyone is a professional and for a nonprofessional who doesn't have time/money/resources to train like a professional a laser might be the edge that works for them. Again, a laser is just a tool. A tool that might help, might not help, might not even make a difference but if it does make a difference that difference could be what saves the day.



    In a stressful save your arse situation folks revert to the level of their training... or lack of training. And a laser can be helpful during point shooting. Not to mention that a laser could be useful for those who cannot avail themselves of a defensive training class.

    *Would you say that a laser can, or can't, be helpful when firing from retention?

    I ran a defensive training course of fire for 2 years so I am not impressed with your attitude.

    *Edited
    Well, a laser failed on me, so I speak from experience. If that happens, you need to fall back to what you have left. If that is a gun wit crappy sights, because you relied on the laser, then you have to defend your life with those crappy sights. I hope you have trained with them. There are excellent small firearms that have very good sights and don't require a laser to function properly.

    You got that whole training thing backwards, which is exactly the danger with lasers. Lasers require more training, not less. You can not just drop training with the sights only. You have to keep your existing training regiment and add the drills with the laser. After all, the laser can and will fail at some point. We have red dots on our ARs, yet train with iron sights as well.

    Read my post #2 on the nonsense about lasers help overcome situational stress. They don't. They add complexity by adding choices. The paradox of choice is one reason why professionals do not have (visible) lasers on their firearms.

    Good luck in trying to find the laser dot when shooting from retention in close combat. Not even Rob Pincus teaches that. They can be helpful when shooting from retention when not in close combat, but what situation would demand that? What training drill would recreate that situation? I simply do not know. That's where I disagree with Rob Pincus.

    If you ran a defensive training course of fire for 2 years so, why don't you know that modern defensive handgun training does teach shooting from retention? Complain about my attitude all you want, but you posted something that any trainer should know is false. I have not been to a single class that doesn't teach that. Feel free to educate me if you meant something different.

  10. #19
    Bikenut Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by bofh View Post
    Well, a laser failed on me, so I speak from experience. If that happens, you need to fall back to what you have left. If that is a gun wit crappy sights, because you relied on the laser, then you have to defend your life with those crappy sights. I hope you have trained with them. There are excellent small firearms that have very good sights and don't require a laser to function properly.

    You got that whole training thing backwards, which is exactly the danger with lasers. Lasers require more training, not less. You can not just drop training with the sights only. You have to keep your existing training regiment and add the drills with the laser. After all, the laser can and will fail at some point. We have red dots on our ARs, yet train with iron sights as well.

    Read my post #2 on the nonsense about lasers help overcome situational stress. They don't. They add complexity by adding choices. The paradox of choice is one reason why professionals do not have (visible) lasers on their firearms.

    Good luck in trying to find the laser dot when shooting from retention in close combat. Not even Rob Pincus teaches that. They can be helpful when shooting from retention when not in close combat, but what situation would demand that? What training drill would recreate that situation? I simply do not know. That's where I disagree with Rob Pincus.

    If you ran a defensive training course of fire for 2 years so, why don't you know that modern defensive handgun training does teach shooting from retention? Complain about my attitude all you want, but you posted something that any trainer should know is false. I have not been to a single class that doesn't teach that. Feel free to educate me if you meant something different.
    Well now I know why you have such a fervent dislike for lasers. Just wondering... was the laser failure due to design, part failure, or lack of maintenance?

    I taught shooting from retention. Still do. I just figured I'd let you step into the assumption that I must be some kind of dumb ass. And it is that attitude of yours about everyone who isn't as tacticool as you evident in every thread someone asks some kind of training question that doesn't impress me one bit.

    I still maintain that the fail of many defensive classes, including the one's that teach firing from retention, assume the defender will have time/distance to bring the gun up to eye level... hence the overbearing emphasis on front sight acquisition. Did the classes you attended, including the ones that taught firing from retention, put most of the training emphasis throughout the class on acquiring the front sight? Yes or no.

    And I still maintain a laser can be a useful tool.

    Have a nice day.

  11. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bikenut View Post
    Well now I know why you have such a fervent dislike for lasers. Just wondering... was the laser failure due to design, part failure, or lack of maintenance?

    I taught shooting from retention. Still do. I just figured I'd let you step into the assumption that I must be some kind of dumb ass. And it is that attitude of yours about everyone who isn't as tacticool as you evident in every thread someone asks some kind of training question that doesn't impress me one bit.

    I still maintain that the fail of many defensive classes, including the one's that teach firing from retention, assume the defender will have time/distance to bring the gun up to eye level... hence the overbearing emphasis on front sight acquisition. Did the classes you attended, including the ones that taught firing from retention, put most of the training emphasis throughout the class on acquiring the front sight? Yes or no.

    And I still maintain a laser can be a useful tool.

    Have a nice day.
    I had a LaserMax guide rod laser in my Glock 19. This is the same one that Rob Pincus has in the video above. It failed due to its poor design and due to two parts failing at different times. I would never recommend this particular laser to anyone, not only because of the failures I experienced, but also because this laser has a dedicated on/off switch that can be accidentally manipulated. I had once the batteries run empty as the laser was accidentally turned on while holstering. The laser would also come on and off accidentally while shooting.

    Yes, the classes I attended did not have 50% of their time or more focused on shooting from retention in close contact scenarios. Instead, they focused on a wide variety of drills, including those that require lining up the sights. A training class is mostly meant for learning the drills. There is a lot of content to cover. It is up to the student to find the right balance of drill practice after the class. If the student doesn't get that most lethal force encounters are at close or contact distance, then he/she clearly didn't listen during the class.

    I agree that there are a lot of classes that focus on the wrong thing. They don't focus on gun fighting. Instead, they focus on shooting. While marksmanship is an important aspect of gun fighting, it is not everything. The classes I attend often have in their equipment requirements listed a mouthguard and/or a blue gun. That tells you that this class is about gun fighting.

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