Shooting articles not well received.
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Thread: Shooting articles not well received.

  1. Shooting articles not well received.

    I recently wrote/updated a few articles: one on a fatal flaw of the 1911, one on the failure of Police handgun training, and one that asked the question: has your handgun training set you up to be killed. I posted two of them on a few sites, and to put it mildly, they were not received with thunderous applause :) :) :)

    But what is, is what is. And not liking it won't change it.

    IMHO, the info has practical value for those who may need to use a handgun in self defense.

    And that thinking got me to make a web search for sites, the members of which are not just shooters, but shooters who have or carry a gun for the specific purpose of self defense, as the info would be most relevant to them.

    So here I am today.

    ..........

    You may find it of interest to check out the articles which are up near the top of the main page on my site.

    There also is lots of FREE information, articles, papers, studies, and stats on: Close Quarters Self Defense & Point Shooting on the site.

    Included are the FBI papers on Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness, and the 10 mm Pistol, plus articles and info on CAR, FAS, P&S, QK, our Fight or Flight response, and other self defense subjects such as Target Focus Fighting.

    Many of the papers and articles are from the original sources (gun trainers and gun professionals), or approved by them as written. Some are by me.

    Also included are the US Army's: Combat Training With Pistols M9 And M11 - FM 3-23.35 (2003), The US Marine Corps Pistol Marksmanship Manual (11/2003), and a digest of The US Army's fast, unaimed, and accurate rifle shooting method - Rifle quick Kill - TT 23-71-1.

    You are welcome to stop bye and help yourself to the info and articles.
    A pistol is not a rifle, so why shoot one like it is.

  2.   
  3. #2
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Gray Court, SC
    Posts
    2,934
    Welcome to the forum! I'll check out your site in more detail later. One article I'm definitely going to read is the failure of Police Handgun training. I was a cop for a few years in CA back in the 70's. I'm a retired USAF Combat Arms Instructor and have been around firearms all my life. I know first hand that the training for the everyday patrolman/officer is substandard at best. The lack of training is shown everyday in shooting situations. 90% of the fire fights you hear about the BG has minor or no wounds at all. I've seen hundreds of rounds fired from multiple officers at one BG and they were sent to the hospital with a minor leg or shoulder wound. I'm a firm believer that officers should be held to a higher proficiency requirement for weapons training and qualification.
    USAF Retired, CATM, SC CWP, NH NR CWP, NRA Benefactor
    To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of people always possess arms, and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them... -- Richard Henry Lee, 1787

  4. #3
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Tampa Bay Area
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    1,854
    Welcome to the site. I'll have to check out the 1911 post on your site later when I have some time to read it.
    "When Government fears the people, it's liberty. When people fear the Government, it's tyranny."
    - Benjamin Franklin

  5. To those who have said welcome and/or expressed an interest in reading the info on the site, Thank You.

    Here is a link to an article I just put up whose title is: Force Science Tests Show That Even Inexperienced Shooters Are Fast & Deadly Accurate Using Point Shooting. If you are a LEO or have a handgun for self defense, and are not familiar with the test results, could be worth your while to take a look at it.

    AIMED Point Shooting or P&S
    A pistol is not a rifle, so why shoot one like it is.

  6. #5
    wolfhunter Guest
    Welcome to the forum. I reviewed your article on the 1911's fatal flaw. Interestingly enough, there is no flaw when the weapon is held and fired as designed. Listing this as a fatal flaw is like telling a new shooter not to purchase a semi-auto because they can't be fired multiple times from within a jacket pocket. Otherwise, you provide some good information.

  7. #6
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    N. Central Indiana
    Posts
    512
    This gentleman has posted on most of the firearm sites, and been laughed at on all of them. Now he's found this one. The "fatal flaw" diatribe is an excellent example of "sheer lunacy".


    It's "grain of salt" time folks, and that's my two cents.
    Only when our arms are sufficient, without doubt, can we be certain, without doubt, that they will never be employed....... John F. Kennedy
    Life Member NRA Life Member Marine Corps League

  8. #7
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
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    somewhere in north texas
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    599

    point shooting is

    a combat proven technique as taught by Fairbairn, Sykes and Applegate . Col. Applegate was still instructing LEO and MILPERS in it 's use at the time of his death.
    SOMEBODY SOMEWHERE IS TRAINING TO KILL YOU. WHAT ARE YOU DOING?

  9. Jay,

    Don't think it's a laughing matter that Sight Shooting fails in CQ SD situations.

    ...........

    Science says, not me, that in a CQ life threat situation, you WILL LOSE your near vision, that is your ability to focus on the sights, you also WILL FOCUS on the threat.

    Per the NYPD's SOP 9 study of over 5,000 police combat cases, you can expect that an armed encounter will happen at less than 21 feet, in poor light, the strong hand will be used to shoot with, the sights will not be used, and the miss rate will be > 80%. Most NYPD officer's were trained to Sight Shoot and they still are.

    In the study an attempt was made to relate range shooting results with on the street results. No connection could be established.

    Seriously, does anyone have proof that Sight Shooting or FSP is actually used in gunfights?

    Got pics, got videos? If you have some, trot em on out.

    Should be hundreds if not thousands of them, since teachers been teaching it for the past 100 years or so.

    Saying that Sight Shooting can be used in CQ SD, is a nice theory, but where's the proof.

    No evidence = no proof = NOT credible.

    On the plus side, Point Shooting is being taught some, but usually only as an advanced method.

    And that's a little backward, as it's what the "newbie" shooters defaulted to, in the Force Science tests.

    Fact is that instinct shooting/PS will be used in most all CQ gunfights.

    So to me it makes good sense to learn how to do it before you are in one, or else you may end up defaulting to spray and pray.

    Point shooting is OK at CQ distances wherein your chance of being shot and/or killed is the greatest.

    Per the NYPD's study of over 5,000 police combat cases:

    From Sept 1854 to Dec 1979, 254 officers died from wounds received in an armed encounter. The shooting distance in 90% of those cases was less than 15 feet.

    Contact to 3 feet ... 34%
    3 feet to 6 feet ...... 47%
    6 feet to 15 feet ..... 9%

    The shooting distances where officers survived, remained almost the same during the SOP years (1970-1979), and for a random sampling of cases going back as far as 1929. 4,000 cases were reviewed. The shooting distance in 75% of those cases was less than 20 feet.

    Contact to 10 feet ... 51%
    10 feet to 20 feet .... 24%

    The majority of incidents occurred in poor lighting conditions. None occurred in what could be called total darkness.

    In 70% of the cases reviewed, sight alignment was not used. Officers reported that they used instinctive or point shooting.

    As the distance between the officer and his opponent increased, some type of aiming was reported in 20% of the cases. This aiming or sighting ran from using the barrel as an aiming reference to picking up the front sight and utilizing fine sight alignment.

    The remaining 10% could not remember whether they had aimed or pointed and fired the weapon instinctively.

    Officers, with an occasional exception, fired with the strong hand. That was the case even when it appeared advantageous to use the weak hand.

    Also and BTW, the US Army in its combat pistol manual, recommends using a two handed isso with the gun on the center line for combat shooting at 15 feet and in.

    .............

    Now, chances are if you are going to be shot and/or killed it will be at 10 feet or less. And per the test, PS was effective at 3 - 4 yards. And, chances are if you are going to be in a gunfight, it will be at 21 feet or less.

    My shot groups which are not pretty and tight, are such that most all shots will hit a chest sized target at 25 feet or more. And I shoot as fast as I can point the gun and pull the trigger with my middle finger and with my index finger along the side of the gun. I can even shoot aerials using P&S. Works for me.



    Edited 6/10 to take out the last 2 lines, which upon re reading were sarcastic, and really did not add info. Sorry about that.
    A pistol is not a rifle, so why shoot one like it is.

  10. #9
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    N. Central Indiana
    Posts
    512
    You've beat this stuff to death on other forums, and had your opinions handed back to you, and you don't stay long. Your points are noted. Now, if I throw a stick, will you just chase it and go away? Please don't inflict on this board, what you have on several others.....
    Only when our arms are sufficient, without doubt, can we be certain, without doubt, that they will never be employed....... John F. Kennedy
    Life Member NRA Life Member Marine Corps League

  11. Quote Originally Posted by Jay View Post
    You've beat this stuff to death on other forums, and had your opinions handed back to you, and you don't stay long. Your points are noted. Now, if I throw a stick, will you just chase it and go away? Please don't inflict on this board, what you have on several others.....
    Edited 6/10 to take out the post as it was mostly sarcastic, and added nothing much to the discussion. Sorry about that.
    A pistol is not a rifle, so why shoot one like it is.

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