Had to Remove a Student Today - Opinions Sought - Page 14
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Thread: Had to Remove a Student Today - Opinions Sought

  1. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by BC1 View Post
    This weekend I held the class "NRA Personal Protection Outside The Home." Saturday was eight hours of lecture, bookwork, demonstration and dry-fire exercises. I had one student who felt the need to interject his opinion on everything that was said. He was bogging us down and we couldn't keep him quiet. I was the lead instructor and had two other NRA instructors and a SWAT weapons instructor working the class as we like a one-to-one instructor/student ratio during the live fire parts of the class.

    Well today (Sunday) was the advanced live-fire exercises. Sixteen students overall and four at a time on the line (with four instructors). Then this particular student came on the line. Look out! He had much difficulty following instructions. First, we found him looking down the barrel of his loaded .45. He was warned and advised of the safety violations. A few minutes later another instructor caught him looking down the barrel. He was warned again and argued that he was not compromising safety on the firing line. Then the police trainer caught him loading the gun while pointing it directly at him. Lastly, I caught him with the loaded gun turned toward himself wiping some smudges off it. He then looked down the barrel again.

    The police instructor requested he hand over the gun and step off the line. He refused. The LEO warned him to turn over the gun or he would forceably take it and arrest him. He begrudgingly gave it up. I locked the gun in the clubhouse and returned to the range to find him arguing that he wasn't doing anything wrong. Tried to tell me all the other instructors were wrong. These are well trained instructors with intuitive knowledge and extensive experience in personal protection. I believe they acted in the best interest of the club, the other students and our own personal safety (even though we all wear vests during live-fire). I refunded his money and repossessed his NRA certificate of completion. When the class ended he was escorted to the main gate, his gun was returned and the gate was locked behind him (he's not a member of this club).

    In the event he shot himself or another student you can bet we would have been named in any lawsuit. Although we carry $6,000,000 liability insurance between us I believed that allowing him to continue presented significant liability to all involved. Ignorance at it's best. yet he's had a CCW permit for 25 years.I thought the LEO was going to choke him as he wouldn't shut up until threatened with police intervention.

    The best part was that we had another instructor teaching "NRA Basic Pistol" in the clubhouse and this occurred while he was covering handgun safety. Those students got a good look at stupidity in action.

    What do you think? Please provide your opinions? Did we handle him correctly.

    In all the years of teaching this was my first experience with such a serious issue.
    Wow...i would have given it back to him empty but made him sign a waiver first. If he does kill himself, it's not your fault. You tried to teach him. He was unwilling to learn. And stupid.

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  3. #132
    My .02. You did not eject him soon enough. For a gross safety issue (like every one of his were) I will eject on the first offense. If you let those safety issues slide and a student injures himself or another AFTER repeated offenses, you are setting yourself up for even greater liability for not taking steps to prevent that injury. Repeated verbal warnings are not considered to be suitable action to prevent injury.

    As far as taking away his personal gun and locking it up until the end of the class then ejecting him, that is something I would never do. He would be unloaded right there on the line, escorted to his vehicle and ejected from the range immediately. Oh yeah, NO refund.

  4. #133
    KYK22 Guest
    I see nothing wrong with what actions you took in this case. When I went through the CCL class that I took, it was made very clear that anyone not following the instructors instructions on the firing line the first time that they were given would be immediately dismissed from the class and no refund of the class cost would be made. There were no problems in the class that I took.
    In my opinion, anytime there are multiple shooters on the firing line, strict safety measures have to be followed. I was shooting trap several years back and one of the shooters had a release trigger on his gun while shooting to my immediate left on the firing line. He apparently forgot this fact and came within less than an inch from blowing my left foot off when he released the trigger on the firing line. I immediately left the firing line and thereafter refused to ever shoot again when anyone was using a release trigger gun. Our club eventually banned the use of released trigger guns for shooting skeet and trap after two more instances, which were caused by two different shooters other than the one I had dealt with.

  5. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by KYK22 View Post
    I see nothing wrong with what actions you took in this case. When I went through the CCL class that I took, it was made very clear that anyone not following the instructors instructions on the firing line the first time that they were given would be immediately dismissed from the class and no refund of the class cost would be made. There were no problems in the class that I took.
    In my opinion, anytime there are multiple shooters on the firing line, strict safety measures have to be followed. I was shooting trap several years back and one of the shooters had a release trigger on his gun while shooting to my immediate left on the firing line. He apparently forgot this fact and came within less than an inch from blowing my left foot off when he released the trigger on the firing line. I immediately left the firing line and thereafter refused to ever shoot again when anyone was using a release trigger gun. Our club eventually banned the use of released trigger guns for shooting skeet and trap after two more instances, which were caused by two different shooters other than the one I had dealt with.
    You don't have a CCL or a gun. You're another anti-2A troll. Now, shoo!

  6. #135
    Faster removal was needed.

    Even when training Professional LE/Military if they are going to do something as ludicrous like look down the barrel of a loaded weapon they do not deserve to continue training as they compromise the safety of other participants.

    While working with students (civilian or professional) once on the line if its an advanced course we usually do simulation overview with everyone's actual weapon but unloaded.

    It allows to see if any are making any muzzling occurrences on themselves or students and if so that is when they are warned!

    Once we get into the Live Fire applications there are NO MORE WARNINGS!!!

    Your simply dismissed and not welcome until you realize the full weight of the STUPIDITY along with in some cases working on the line themselves until proving they can be trusted.

    There are no excuses for blatant disrespect in the use of a firearm or those whom you are training with.

    I am surprised he was actually not arrested considering how many violations occurred much less the refusal to be disarmed and removed from the property.

    Glad the issue was resolved with none of the innocent trainees having to suffer consequences of that students extremely MALICIOUS and inappropriate behavior.

    j.

  7. #136
    Im not a instructor but when i took my ccdw class just last weekend we where told ONE flagging of any sort any sort or screw up on the fire line you are out of class no money back. If you miss a command or something that is ok but we are talking looking down the barrel of a loaded gun flagging, loaded gun when not on the line. They had a lot of Rules BUT for every one to be safe.

  8. #137
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    Please tell me what "flagging" means.

    I know fragging but not flagging.


    Thank you.
    ...SCOTUS says we're right...You don't like it. I'm sorry you don't like it. I guess that's a problem for you. Some people don't like gays. Some don't like alcohol. Some don't like meat. ~michaelzwilliamson

  9. #138
    Quote Originally Posted by Gallstones View Post
    Please tell me what "flagging" means.

    I know fragging but not flagging.


    Thank you.
    Not sure, but probably being warned not to do Dumb ***** stuff, like sweeping the other students, or looking down the barrel, can't shoot, or giving the instructor crap when he corrects you, and generaly just not being as ***hole while someone is teaching you about the use of firearms
    Bad Guys of the world beware the next time you think about jumping on a old guy, because its a fair bet he's to old to fight and probably to fat to run, but can put one in your eye at 50ft with his weak hand

  10. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gallstones View Post
    Please tell me what "flagging" means.

    I know fragging but not flagging.


    Thank you.
    Flagging is when you point the muzzle at somebody, whether accidental or not.

  11. #140
    Quote Originally Posted by BC1 View Post

    What do you think? Please provide your opinions? Did we handle him correctly?
    When instructing anything whether counter assault/defensive tactics, intermediate force devices, or firearms, safety is paramount. There may be some leeway given with some hands-on techniques and some less-lethal devices, but with firearms you do not have that luxury. In my opinion, action should have been taken much sooner for the other students' and the instructors' safety.


    Sent from my VS840 4G using USA Carry mobile app

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